Is the FA20 a dud? No high horsepower use?

[krulux]

I hate to see any engine blown... but from those that have popped comes hard won knowledge - what works, what does not. Breaking eggs, omelets and all that.

I like to think in a couple of years we will begin to see some truly built applications and options on the FA20 platform.. but, no, as of today I don't think it is a dud at all...

For me personally, I've enjoyed inching up the NA horsepower with bolt-on mods and tunes. My NA goal is 200whp on 93oct - which should be obtainable.

I'll eventually install an FI solution, probably a supercharger... and I expect to reach 300whp safely. If that requires building a block to make it happen, so be it. It's part of the fun of owning and enjoying the car.

[Captain Insano]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

We still don't know if a tune fixes the transient knock issue. We'll find out the hard way I suppose, since we're on a 2014 now using the latest base calibration tables with a tune.

Our 2013 only had stock engines. We purposely left it untouched, because we expected to have issues. What we didn't expect is Subaru's unwillingness to admit that they have an error (which was theoretically corrected on later ECU revisions; the changes are certainly there).

I guess you can say that we did the R&D for Subaru/Toyota.

For the record, our first engine had logged about 150 total laps over the course of about 20 track days. Our second engine had about 80 laps over 10 track days. The rest were all street miles.

The local can tell you how few laps we actually do when we're testing, unless we're stressing a heat component.

We've had a lot of people asking why we're only pushing 240-245whp, and using the CARB tune. Because we want to take baby steps. We know we can make more power with very minor changes to our setup, and we'll do so when we're ready, but we want to take small steps and document what's going on so that we can source issues that pop up as we progress.

My S2k engine has been untouched since day 1, and I drive it far harder than the CSG BRZ... I'll admit that we may have set the bar rather high, since we're used to engines that are pretty stout. The FI CSG S2k has more laps on it than all of the BRZ laps combined, and then some. Like it's been stated, the F2xC has more development.

Thanks for not taking my post the wrong way. I do respect what you do for this platform (part of the reason I purchase parts from you!). :-)

I guess maybe we are saying the same or similar things.

The actual engine and longblock is not bad on this car IMHO. The tune is shitty from OEM as are other Subaru models like the STI. You found out the hard way before you got an aftermarket retune unfortunately and I know first hand that can really suck after I had an STI engine blow up (it was very modified though, pay to play). I don't think this makes the FA20 engine bad, but I do freely admit the OEM tune, especially the early version, is risky on the track.

I think the S2K engine is fabulous. At the same time, I am not blinded by the fact the BRZ/FRS is significantly cheaper new than the S2K was (at least $5K or more, not even considering inflation) and the S2K had less strict emissions in that era and finally (most importantly) the S2K is a hand assembled engine with Honda reliability. I don't expect the same robustness from the BRZ engine - honestly, how many modern engines have the same robustness as the S2K engine... Not many. I would argue the S2K engine is the best 2.0L NA engine ever, I might lose, but it's gotta be up there in the list.

On the other hand, I also don't think the only known issue with FA20 DI seals which is most likely caused by a shitty OEM tune really is an engine hardware issue. The actual FA20 block may be pretty darn stout as long as it's not running that crappy early version OEM tune (time will tell). That tune causes det in certain situations. Any engine (even the S2K engine) will eventually fail after sustained detonation scenarios. Like somebody posted earlier, let's give it another couple year and see where all the high HP NA and FI builds are at. Opinions might be ALOT different then.

[wparsons]

^^ I would argue the K20's are better than the F20C's, but that's not much of an argument since they're both Honda

[Captain Insano]

Yeah, I said I might lose that argument... Haha.. But my point is it's a pretty badass engine.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by wparsons

^^ I would argue the K20's are better than the F20C's, but that's not much of an argument since they're both Honda

I wouldn't argue with you on that but keep in mind you're living in the past! Respect for the past but not available now as new.

Out of all current available engines, I don't think the FA is at the bottom - that being said, the engine's only been out to pasture for a couple of years. Like everyone said, give it a couple more and we'll start seeing a trend and ultimately judge whether it was good or not.

[shaunsweeney]

The only issue I for see is the d4s system not being fully realized due to subaru immediately switching to their own DIT with the wrx.

[CajunFRS]

Plenty of people are running around +100whp on stock internals. I don't see how that isn't impressive. Different people have range of expectations I assume but the FA20 engine itself is way better, than old ejs, in plenty of ways. Fuel efficiency, emissions, and power per liter.

They didn't use it in the new WRX for fun. Hopefully they can figure something out for the new STI in a few years.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Captain Insano

Thanks for not taking my post the wrong way. I do respect what you do for this platform (part of the reason I purchase parts from you!). :-)

I guess maybe we are saying the same or similar things.

The actual engine and longblock is not bad on this car IMHO. The tune is shitty from OEM as are other Subaru models like the STI. You found out the hard way before you got an aftermarket retune unfortunately and I know first hand that can really suck after I had an STI engine blow up (it was very modified though, pay to play). I don't think this makes the FA20 engine bad, but I do freely admit the OEM tune, especially the early version, is risky on the track.

I think the S2K engine is fabulous. At the same time, I am not blinded by the fact the BRZ/FRS is significantly cheaper new than the S2K was (at least $5K or more, not even considering inflation) and the S2K had less strict emissions in that era and finally (most importantly) the S2K is a hand assembled engine with Honda reliability. I don't expect the same robustness from the BRZ engine - honestly, how many modern engines have the same robustness as the S2K engine... Not many. I would argue the S2K engine is the best 2.0L NA engine ever, I might lose, but it's gotta be up there in the list.

On the other hand, I also don't think the only known issue with FA20 DI seals which is most likely caused by a shitty OEM tune really is an engine hardware issue. The actual FA20 block may be pretty darn stout as long as it's not running that crappy early version OEM tune (time will tell). That tune causes det in certain situations. Any engine (even the S2K engine) will eventually fail after sustained detonation scenarios. Like somebody posted earlier, let's give it another couple year and see where all the high HP NA and FI builds are at. Opinions might be ALOT different then.

I have high hopes. It may cost a pretty penny... but this chassis is spectacular. Just need the powertrain to match.

[bobaab]

There's plenty of stuff going on in Japan.

AVO Turboworld: https://www.facebook.com/avojapan

Esprit is making almost 400hp in their 86: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynaamWqzaLQ"]ESPRIT TOYOTA 86 on Track【2012 TSUKUBA SUPER BATTLE 】 - YouTube[/ame]

Aspiration (http://aspiration-r.info) has a turbo FRS with 300+ HP


HKS in Kyushu has a turbo 86: http://www.hks-kyusyu.co.jp/blog/archives/98.html


The list goes on and on. Check out this page for even more FI goodness from Japan:
http://car.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/...12_581549.html

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Frost

I wouldn't argue with you on that but keep in mind you're living in the past! Respect for the past but not available now as new.

Wasn't comparing them to the FA20, just stating that I'd take a K20 over an F20C

Originally Posted by shaunsweeney

The only issue I for see is the d4s system not being fully realized due to subaru immediately switching to their own DIT with the wrx.

They switched before the WRX, the Legacy in Japan already has the FA20DIT and so does the Forester XT here.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I have high hopes. It may cost a pretty penny... but this chassis is spectacular. Just need the powertrain to match.

I swear everytime you comment about this car it makes me love it even more.

Are you sure you aren't sponsored by Subaru? :P

I kid I kid.

[LeeMaster]

Originally Posted by hmong337

Is it just me or does it seem like every major badass FRS/brz/gt86 basically tosses away the FA20 in favor of something "better"?

Gt300 brz... Ej motor
Upgarage 86... Ej motor
Greddy drift car... Cosworth

All the Scion drift cars use any but the FA20 and practically everybody is doing 2jz engines.

...even long time Toyota tuner Tom's Racing ditched the FA20 in favor of a sexy 400hp V6 2gr. WTF!
http://frsbrzperformance.com/tag/engine-swap/

Seriously, is the motor gonna go anywhere? Is it able to play with power reliably? What about SuperGT? Will there be a GT86 GT300 car using the FA20? I just haven't seen its use in any sort of serious completion.

Trd Griffen is doing their thing NA style with good results for their class. But will they ever climb classes, go boost, and take on high ranking cars while maintaining reliability?

The only team so far pushing the fa20 that I know of is KSR Scion FRS. Their first season wasn't too good but not much to expect as this is still a virgin platform to them. I hope to see their second season in the up coming 2014 PWC be a better one.

Other than that, there's not real much to go off of other than streetcars like Crawford's, HKS d1 car, Bandoh and Rasty 86 to name some that are doing it okay.

But now my concern is, will anybody take this FA20 seriously or is it just another mediocre designed engine tossed into the worlds cheapest front engine rwd sports coupe- and that's why nobody cares for it?

Any FA20 hope?

Hey buddy, you forgot this badboy that took on the Pikes peak challenge and other various races.


Just for the record, I do see where you are coming from. But teams would rather use a proven system rather than wasting their money on R&D. Which is why you see a lot of them dumping their money on the EJ and the almighty 2JZ. Just give it some time and once these race teams start figuring out this new FA engine they will be dumping that old proven system and start jumping on the bandwagon once the limit has been broken.

[dem00n]

You guys are a bit harsh on hmong337, he's a car guy like us, he's just a bit impatient and ignorant, aren't we all sometimes?

Rightful so, i don't post around here because my knowledge is limited. Patience is key.

I'd rather companies take time then rush products, a rush product always leaves disappointment and a long lasting negativity towards a company.

[JS + BRZ]

Jesus, OP sounds like my boss.

No, that's not a compliment.