ALL ARIZONA FR-S/BRZ OWNERS HOME PAGE

[Ninjin]

Originally Posted by BobbyBlue86

Where did you get the 400% from?

Having someone take cut 2.5 in steel and assemble it will never cost $500. Trust me I take 100k worth of aluminum and titanium and build a helicopter and sell it for 2.5 million. There are other things attached to production of parts.

For example. That's probably $100 wroth of metal. Now someone has to build it. And from looking into myself it looks like a header takes about a day to fab. So 8 hour work day times maybe $20 an hour? That's $160. So $260 now at that point. Next someone has to sell it. So we pay him too. And now! Some one has to pay all these people but he takes a cut to. Everything adds up quickly.

So really, 400% profit?

Headers aren't that large. In terms of raw material it's a lot less than your estimate. If you're talking cost after forming and bending the pipes and cutting the flanges, yeah, it's not far from that.

I can't find any reference from Shiv as to what country his headers are made in. Keep in mind that manufacturing is much cheaper abroad.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Ninjin

P.S. AP header makes decent power, @EZWood's car did very well at the dyno day.

I will ignore the second hand info thing as we all remember the game telephone in kindergarden and flat out I would change what was said because I thought it was funny as hell.

I do agree the forums jump from one to another but this happens at ALL car forums. So hating that now a new person is in the spotlight is really... odd. Frankly the spotlight will either prove someone or burn through them so let it happen with solid evidence.

Now I quoted the last point for a reason, I own an Agency Power. I am not pleased with the build quality.

Flange warped on Arrival from the Header to Midpipe connection. Connecting joints leak and frankly are a strange design to me but if they sealed fine I would not care. You know what telling them got me? A canned response of "Who cares". But because this is a liked company locally despite many issues elsewhere and many "Changings of the guard" I knew where it would lead if I made it public.

So I use my header and look at new designs constantly hints me undertaking this actual Dyno test instead of speculating all day with nothing to show.

If speculation got us anywhere I would be watching the 49ers in the Super Bowl... and I don't even really like football I just like that team because of my Dad from when I was a kid and thats who we would root for.

[JDLAutoDesign]

You arent taking in to account any expenses other than material. You have welding gas, shop fees, electricity, employee you pay to weld it etc ect. This is why 90% of aftermarket companies outsource to China and Taiwan @BobbyBlue86

[brenesk91]

Originally Posted by captain_jack

Cancel it kevin, bill has some he doesnt want. You can buy his im sure.

sent from your mom

I already pay paled but I thought someone else in our Tucson group called dibs so I didn't want to overstep his dibs. I bought them for 50$ which is far better than any site I saw and comes with the LEDS

[nelsmar]

Originally Posted by Cross

This is not going to end is it, alright Marin I will do this I had a feeling it might happen but lets go.
1) I would hope so you have been burning through it lately, so unless your like me and make a nice salary then your nuts. This proves nothing.

2) You saw someone running a canned off the shelf tune to which even Shiv said its unknown but should be fine after a few others tried it but even to this day he mentioned the EL is better suited. However lets make this clear since you are leaving out important information with E85 and N/A Applications:
Means Based Timing (MBT)
This is the point where you pass the amount of timing thats advantageous but basically you are not knocking. Aka I could run 32 degrees of timing on my Original Vette using E85 however it stopped making power at 27-28 degrees. Th more timing it got the more it started to drop power.
However the other side of this is the fact of how resistant E85 is to knocking, so even if you got it to (which in this case was fairly safe to say was caused by the back pressure of the cats in the system still) no harm was presented to the motor. Why because again E85 is in itself its own safety. No damage was possible esp. when compared to gas and the fact we all know knock occurs on the crappy gas we get here which is another thing that makes E85 so appealing.

3)I have them all as well and none of them are "Oh my god these rock", HP Tuners Rocks, Rom Raider and ECUTek's more expensive (try 900) option is fine but Rom Raider is a better choice for its open group support. Hell Tuner Studio for Megasquirt has better logging than a 900 setup with ECUTek and it cost me 40.00 back in the MS1/MS2 era with lifetime updates.
As for Tuner Pro you brought it up as being horrible and its not my personal choice but frankly for the Price ECUTek sucks. HP Tuners allows you to tune 5 vehicles, bring in a wideband signal and log it with everything else the car is doing and without the need to use some other sensors signal you can just plug into the device. Along with many other controls all for less than 700! Go find another hill to die on because ECUTek is not the top of the hill by far.

4) So are many others selling car parts but the problem is you have NOTHING to back up your claims. Hell Marin you were telling m how great John/Vinscoti was. WTF?! Remember when everyone jumped on a local shop all over the boards?! I guess those were wrong but you, you're right. BS.

5) Then why do you feel the need to repeatedly do it? You constantly feel the need to go after the OFT and Shiv Jesus man did he sleep with your sister? Its getting creepy.

6) Yes thats called an off the shelf guess what Toni and John do similar things. The thing that bothers you is that you personally do not like it. But frankly for knowing so much you let someone else who you refuse to bad mouth blow up your car when apparently you should have flat out known better. Why?
Off the Shelf means safe but could be tweaked further. So far many seem very happy with it and for some reason that bothers you a lot.

7) This has been covered enough and is an extension of prior numbered points and other posts I have made tonight. Its been beaten enough.

8) I have run into issues before even today its documented with Shiv's new .Dev Beta releases that I am not as fond of. But I have never had a buggy issue. However with all the units sold I am sure at some point one is going to have an issue, but has anyone tried to warranty one and ran into an issue? Hell even today shiv was answering on the forums and by email. Seems like there is no way to please you in his arena, no matter what you don't like him and thats fine but stop running round acting like a damn child about it. You don't like him and others are fine with him thats pretty normal in the real world.

9)Now people are talking out of their ass but its only Shiv, this coming from someone who has nothing on paper.
Let me put it this way, if they go this cheaper route you mention, go on a cruise over 300 miles and need to switch to gas again does your cheaper option work? I mean you are going to be right there to switch it right then right? Your going to have a central location you post updates to your tunes when you make revisions and they can handle that right?

This is really going to far, your being an ass Marin and unlike anyone else I will call anyone out on it. I don't care who likes you or if I think your a decent guy. Your being a **** and you never needed to be but I have no problem poking holes in everything you have claimed. Your no master tuner you just got your learners kit and think you can tune. You are being foolish.

1. Yes I financially do well at my day job.
2. I feel like you switched topics completely. Yes it was a canned tune and was said "should" be safe. The point was I checked logs for someone and saw it knocking. You shouldn't be knocking. You are talking about important things... I was talking about my experience with his base maps & hardware. Why are you changing topics?
3. ... i just sold someone cable & license for $600.00 this week. It has more features & logging options than OFT. You can buy even more features for an additional 300. Features that OFT currently does not have any plans to produce. Hell even Motec doesn't have plans to support some of these. I spent a lot of time talking to them. So price? Not bad IMO. Full data logging that works NOW, not "soon" as promised. Pay an extra $100-200 and you can do it now or you can save a few dollars and then get it eventually. Also you have extra work per flash... and logging... Transferring takes time!
4. I don't have the slightest bit of an idea what you are saying. I can backup all of my claims. Shiv however is showing before & after dynos where the before dyno is always "Well it had this as well but it shouldn't effect it much". Or a difference in fuel type... etc. So you need to clarify or stop trying to give bullshit responses. I have no idea what you are saying about john... I have never promoted him. Not once. Local shop? What?
5. Why do i point out flaws? Oh maybe because a tuner fucked up and blew my engine. He admitted it to me yesterday. And that he caused a major fault on many customers tunes and he has to resolve the problem now. He appreciated that I spent the extra time to attack him and find the issue because others would have had engine failure if i didn't show him how he failed. This is an expensive game to play.
6. Toni does not do shelf maps. Visconti does. And I love shelf maps personally. And I recommend them to a lot of people. The simple fact is I have offered many locals OTS maps from shiv or to experiment on their car and go custom and guess what? They all asked for custom.

But frankly for knowing so much you let someone else who you refuse to bad mouth blow up your car when apparently you should have flat out known better.

I got a quote through ecutek for 8,000 USD to get a master tuner license. I needed to prove that I owned a shop, owned a dyno, and prove tuning expense. This was the minimal to tune my own car. I told the tuner that tuned my car the problem I had from day #1. He ignored it. And guess what? I talked to him yesterday and he told me i was right from the beginning. I was trapped and had no other way to tune my car. I talked to motec about getting in on beta, i tried to get in on AEM beta, I tried to get in on hydra beta. None of these went through everyone dropped the ball. I paid 2 different tuners 4 total times to get my vehicle tuned and still had the problems. I drove the way the tuner told me to drive to show him exactly what he wanted to see. And he was wrong, the engine was destroyed in TWO tanks of gas. So yes you can bring this topic up and yes I was right. And yes I have emails, text messages, and endless logs to prove it. I pushed one of your buttons and you are just trying to nit pick random bullshit to "win" for some odd reason.

7. Needs no response
8. He pushed a beta to public release. This is not acceptable to me. This is a small business technique and he should really push beta & standard releases. There was only one download on the website and it is not my fault that I could not open his software.

9. Yes I can merge shiv's maps into a single ROM. Ask @Ninjin he runs one. He not only has both an E85 and 91 octane map he has a E30 "migration map" that lets him run E15-E30 (and possibly higher) in safe conditions. He doesnt have to flash to do this, simply select map #2. Or you can use an ecutek cable, download shiv's "recent tune" and flash it as you want. Whats cool is with ecutek you can actually do flex fuel, this is not capable in OFT and shiv said he didn't plan on doing this.


Eliot you have tried to turn me into an asshole because I am tuning local cars for free. I recommended Toni to locals as he LIED to me about who he was. He gave me a fake company name that he registered to copy another company. I felt guilty and you know what I did? I offered free tuning and even offered to pay for dyno time for a number of those individuals to make up for something that I really don't need to. So you can try to make me look like an ass all you want but I threw money out to people to help them and contribute to the community. All while you just seem to want brag about how good shiv is when you in fact are selling his units. I got suckered in to toni just like you got suckered into shiv. You your self now have an ecutek cable for the same reasons I don't own an OFT. So I see little reason to be a cock about it.

[nelsmar]

Also to note... Toni him self asked me to log into his computer remotely this afternoon to look over some ECUtek related bits. A number of individuals saw it happen earlier. So if I am really that bad of a person and lack any knowledge whatsoever why is one of the most used tuners in the nation asking for my opinion?

[Ninjin]

Preface: I'm just trying to have a conversation. I don't have a horse in this race. I don't and probably never will sell anything car related or make any money off of car stuff. I would also like to think I'm mature enough to not fall into the trap of post-purchase rationalization, but no one is totally immune to that.

Originally Posted by Cross

I will ignore the second hand info thing as we all remember the game telephone in kindergarden and flat out I would change what was said because I thought it was funny as hell.

I do agree the forums jump from one to another but this happens at ALL car forums. So hating that now a new person is in the spotlight is really... odd. Frankly the spotlight will either prove someone or burn through them so let it happen with solid evidence.

The reason I'm being skeptical about Shiv is because he's saying things I think are untrue. I am concerned that he may be over-hyping his product like others before him. As they say, fool me once...

But it won't be the spotlight that will prove someone. It'll be a dyno. Let's get some OFH in for testing!

Originally Posted by Cross

Now I quoted the last point for a reason, I own an Agency Power. I am not pleased with the build quality.

Flange warped on Arrival from the Header to Midpipe connection. Connecting joints leak and frankly are a strange design to me but if they sealed fine I would not care. You know what telling them got me? A canned response of "Who cares". But because this is a liked company locally despite many issues elsewhere and many "Changings of the guard" I knew where it would lead if I made it public.

Maybe I missed the Agency Power love-fest, but I was never their biggest fan. In fact, the AP headers really shocked me when they did that well at the dyno day. To be frank, I thought they were going to be a disappointment. But I'm trying to be honest here about what the actual results were in regard to power. As for other aspects of the ownership experience, I think you're spot on, and the community will benefit from hearing about what you went through.

Originally Posted by Cross

So I use my header and look at new designs constantly hints me undertaking this actual Dyno test instead of speculating all day with nothing to show.

If speculation got us anywhere I would be watching the 49ers in the Super Bowl... and I don't even really like football I just like that team because of my Dad from when i was a kid and thats who we would root for.

Getting real data is hard work, but I know @nelsmar really wants to do it. I'm sure any help others could offer would be greatly appreciated. We could really do something awesome for the community by getting some reliable data out there.

[BobbyBlue86]

Originally Posted by JDLAutoDesign

You arent taking in to account any expenses other than material. You have welding gas, shop fees, electricity, employee you pay to weld it etc ect. This is why 90% of aftermarket companies outsource to China and Taiwan @BobbyBlue86

The list goes on and on. We assemble our airframes in Mexico and when it comes down to it, we save pennies. But it's a necessary evil to keep cost down. I understand perfectly what goes into production.

Thanks for the add in, I get tired of typing on my phone quickly. Haha

[Cross]

Originally Posted by nelsmar

1. Yes I financially do well at my day job.
2. I feel like you switched topics completely. Yes it was a canned tune and was said "should" be safe. The point was I checked logs for someone and saw it knocking. You shouldn't be knocking. You are talking about important things... I was talking about my experience with his base maps & hardware. Why are you changing topics?
3. ... i just sold someone cable & license for $600.00 this week. It has more features & logging options than OFT. You can buy even more features for an additional 300. Features that OFT currently does not have any plans to produce. Hell even Motec doesn't have plans to support some of these. I spent a lot of time talking to them. So price? Not bad IMO. Full data logging that works NOW, not "soon" as promised. Pay an extra $100-200 and you can do it now or you can save a few dollars and then get it eventually. Also you have extra work per flash... and logging... Transferring takes time!
4. I don't have the slightest bit of an idea what you are saying. I can backup all of my claims. Shiv however is showing before & after dynos where the before dyno is always "Well it had this as well but it shouldn't effect it much". Or a difference in fuel type... etc. So you need to clarify or stop trying to give bullshit responses. I have no idea what you are saying about john... I have never promoted him. Not once. Local shop? What?
5. Why do i point out flaws? Oh maybe because a tuner fucked up and blew my engine. He admitted it to me yesterday. And that he caused a major fault on many customers tunes and he has to resolve the problem now. He appreciated that I spent the extra time to attack him and find the issue because others would have had engine failure if i didn't show him how he failed. This is an expensive game to play.
6. Toni does not do shelf maps. Visconti does. And I love shelf maps personally. And I recommend them to a lot of people. The simple fact is I have offered many locals OTS maps from shiv or to experiment on their car and go custom and guess what? They all asked for custom.

But frankly for knowing so much you let someone else who you refuse to bad mouth blow up your car when apparently you should have flat out known better.

I got a quote through ecutek for 8,000 USD to get a master tuner license. I needed to prove that I owned a shop, owned a dyno, and prove tuning expense. This was the minimal to tune my own car. I told the tuner that tuned my car the problem I had from day #1. He ignored it. And guess what? I talked to him yesterday and he told me i was right from the beginning. I was trapped and had no other way to tune my car. I talked to motec about getting in on beta, i tried to get in on AEM beta, I tried to get in on hydra beta. None of these went through everyone dropped the ball. I paid 2 different tuners 4 total times to get my vehicle tuned and still had the problems. I drove the way the tuner told me to drive to show him exactly what he wanted to see. And he was wrong, the engine was destroyed in TWO tanks of gas. So yes you can bring this topic up and yes I was right. And yes I have emails, text messages, and endless logs to prove it. I pushed one of your buttons and you are just trying to nit pick random bullshit to "win" for some odd reason.

7. Needs no response
8. He pushed a beta to public release. This is not acceptable to me. This is a small business technique and he should really push beta & standard releases. There was only one download on the website and it is not my fault that I could not open his software.

9. Yes I can merge shiv's maps into a single ROM. Ask @Ninjin he runs one. He not only has both an E85 and 91 octane map he has a E30 "migration map" that lets him run E15-E30 (and possibly higher) in safe conditions. He doesnt have to flash to do this, simply select map #2. Or you can use an ecutek cable, download shiv's "recent tune" and flash it as you want. Whats cool is with ecutek you can actually do flex fuel, this is not capable in OFT and shiv said he didn't plan on doing this.


Eliot you have tried to turn me into an asshole because I am tuning local cars for free. I recommended Toni to locals as he LIED to me about who he was. He gave me a fake company name that he registered to copy another company. I felt guilty and you know what I did? I offered free tuning and even offered to pay for dyno time for a number of those individuals to make up for something that I really don't need to. So you can try to make me look like an ass all you want but I threw money out to people to help them and contribute to the community. All while you just seem to want brag about how good shiv is when you in fact are selling his units. I got suckered in to toni just like you got suckered into shiv. You your self now have an ecutek cable for the same reasons I don't own an OFT. So I see little reason to be a cock about it.

Marin you really want to play?

Ok lets see I will again respond in turn.

1)So do I again I will state whats the point? Do you even have one here? Nope moving on.

2) Yes my points are important because log a stock tune and it knocks at different points too? You say it trying to imply how bad it is, you fail to put any context on it. Hints the issue that you clearly fail to back up with more than a comment of "it knocked". For all we know it knocked when going 37mph in 6th gear. Vague way to try and fabricate a point.

3) Jesus it has not even been out what maybe 6 months and its not moving fast enough. How long has ECUTek been out and they still can't provide a table log setup for use? Yeah thats really a company moving forward! Thats the better investment alright they are doing so much more for this community!

4) Let me post a screenshot of you talking about how helpful John was and how it was BS he got banned etc. I guess you forgot talking to me about that. I am very good at backing up what I say or admitting when I am wrong. I may believe in what I say but that doesn't mean I can't accept being proven wrong. Thats humility.
Since you have messaged me again claiming not to remember it I will be sure to post that screenshot as promised.

5) You claim to be pointing out flaws but frankly you have no PROOF! Thats where the issue starts. This is like a political debate you only have to hint at the possibility but proving it meh I will just talk about doing so but never get around to it. Thats what you have been doing.

6) No what I am proving is if you knew so much then you knew better than to do it, you choose to willing break your car to prove a point that was easy to prove with just logs and not destroying your car. Or frankly you couldn't do better at the time but less than a few months later you are a master... yeah thats totally believable. Novice to Jedi in a few months folks and he doesn't even have a running car!

7) Were not going here as per your post.

8) He has released betas to the public I appreciate it we can look at things and work with him instead of it being closed and unopen to the group. Having closed files has worked out so much better correct?

9) Yes YOU can do that but the 600 version CANNOT! So they have to come to you to get that feature or updates to that layout right? Do you see the issue yet with my scenario or are you choosing to ignore it?

You are not some savior coming in Marin you're another local enthusiast who is a part of the group why do you need to be elevated? Its a car group... were a bunch of guys who share common interests hanging out yet you seem to want to be revered.
I think its great your tuning for free but you're also using them as learning platforms because you are learning too. So why wouldn't it be free? You pay for someone who supposedly knows what they are doing not the guy who is just learning.
I have told many I think your a great guy and you will take care of them, I personally believe this but I also believe you have some hardon for the OFT and its pathetic you don't need to. Its fine there are other products why give those who choose to use them such a hard time?? Even the person who has received said treatment multiple times has told you enough and you just don't get it. Again this highlights there being another underlying issue.

As for my practices and the community you want to talk about that?
First the last batch of OFT's I sold at a loss because the price changed. Not one of them knew. My Legitimate business is run as a hobby mainly for me because my Brother is an ASE Certified Master Tech and we both like to help people out. Although more and more lately we have been seeing people we wished we had not helped.
But lets see for YEARS I have been running a local car show to help local families. Thats just a big marketing ploy for a company I don't even advertise right?
Really thats where you are going to go, you help out so much in the community and I am an ass who sells for Shiv. I give Shiv more heat than anyone here has. I am direct and blunt for a reason and it has nothing to do with loyalty to a brand or company.

[BobbyBlue86]

I don't understand why there is an argument about the unknown.
@nelsmar you push your opinions down people's throats. I've seen it all over the forums. It's a huge turn off. People are excited about new stuff and this is a good thing because it means people love what they have and are excited to build it farther. No tuner is the same. I'm very new to the whole tuner platform and I've noticed that. We are all working towards one goal though right? We all want to squeeze every ounce out of these cars. But in truth that means a few good people breaking things and figuring out what not to do. The rest ride on the safety of the wake and reap most of the benefits but at a cost.

So calm down. Don't be so pushy. Not everyone has the same goals with their car that you do.

[Lischynski]

[nelsmar]

So since its late I am sorry but I haven't read your post @Cross. Maybe in the morning. But ill just close with this...

You've gone into a big debate debate about me. You've insulted me. And at this very second are messaging me on facebook in anger because of me being open on the forum. All of your comments have just brought out the fact that I was lied to and abused. I was taken advantage of because I stated that I was willing to throw money at problems and vendors took advantage of that. I was deceived by a vendor who lied about who they were and have done this numerous times over numerous platforms with fake companies. This resulted in my engine being destroyed and me losing on thousands of dollars. I was open about every last bit of it every step of the way.

I had recommended this individual to a number of locals when I paid to fly him into town. I realized he was a fraud and went out of my way to try and look after every individual involved. I paid money out of pocket on a number of things to make up for this. I spent a lot of my personal time going after this vendor and have spent at least 4 hours a day for roughly the last month to get everything cleaned up for everyone. I have reached out to the majority of people and speak to them near daily with updates on what is going on and have told a number of them that their vehicles are in danger. I spent a large amount of time trying to get this vendor to realize their massive mistake. They have as of yesterday realized how bad of a mistake they made and thus many peoples vehicles will be saved because of this.

So I am sorry that I no longer trust the lies and deception that is cast upon us by these vendors. I have been lied to by nearly every vendor I have dealt with in this community. And I question everything said at this point and wont trust the majority of bullshit posted because its just that. Bullshit. So I am sorry that me posting my actual results and experiences offends you and I recommend you just block my account if it offends you that much. I have gone well out of my way to help everyone locally day after day and you are the only person that has complained about my efforts. And I am truly sorry you feel that I have been strongly negative against the product you sell. But I am just trying to give my honest opinion as I get literally a call a day asking about which product fits each and I have probably sold more OFT tablets than you at this point. I however do not sell them directly, I simply tell them to talk to shiv.

[Ninjin]

Gentlemen, we have reached this point:



Good night.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by nelsmar

So since its late I am sorry but I haven't read your post @Cross. Maybe in the morning. But ill just close with this...

You've gone into a big debate debate about me. You've insulted me. And at this very second are messaging me on facebook in anger because of me being open on the forum. All of your comments have just brought out the fact that I was lied to and abused. I was taken advantage of because I stated that I was willing to throw money at problems and vendors took advantage of that. I was deceived by a vendor who lied about who they were and have done this numerous times over numerous platforms with fake companies. This resulted in my engine being destroyed and me losing on thousands of dollars. I was open about every last bit of it every step of the way.

I had recommended this individual to a number of locals when I paid to fly him into town. I realized he was a fraud and went out of my way to try and look after every individual involved. I paid money out of pocket on a number of things to make up for this. I spent a lot of my personal time going after this vendor and have spent at least 4 hours a day for roughly the last month to get everything cleaned up for everyone. I have reached out to the majority of people and speak to them near daily with updates on what is going on and have told a number of them that their vehicles are in danger. I spent a large amount of time trying to get this vendor to realize their massive mistake. They have as of yesterday realized how bad of a mistake they made and thus many peoples vehicles will be saved because of this.

So I am sorry that I no longer trust the lies and deception that is cast upon us by these vendors. I have been lied to by nearly every vendor I have dealt with in this community. And I question everything said at this point and wont trust the majority of bullshit posted because its just that. Bullshit. So I am sorry that me posting my actual results and experiences offends you and I recommend you just block my account if it offends you that much. I have gone well out of my way to help everyone locally day after day and you are the only person that has complained about my efforts. And I am truly sorry you feel that I have been strongly negative against the product you sell. But I am just trying to give my honest opinion as I get literally a call a day asking about which product fits each and I have probably sold more OFT tablets than you at this point. I however do not sell them directly, I simply tell them to talk to shiv.

Now I am messaging you in anger? You contacted me... forget much? I posted the other side, provided the balance to an argument you only showed that you brought considerable bias to. Yet because I am not agreeing with you thats me arguing with you and being mean.
Slant it how you will but the fact that many have tried to say this to you nicely and you just don't get it is where the problem lies, hell Bobby flat out told you about cramming down peoples throats and you just don't get it and as usual you are sending me countless Facebook PM's as I type this 6-8 at a time. So you tell me who is mad?

You claim I am backing Shiv because I am a Vendor, as I pointed out I actually do this for the community. I took a loss that last batch and didn't care it was 20-25 in shipping who cares. I want to helps others they pay exactly what I pay not 10.00 not 50.00 over, I am not in this to make money just to share a common enthusiasm and I will not Fan Boy a side. If OFT is horrible I will say OFT is Horrible however frankly its not. Debate what you like but you cannot even keep up with the points you try to make you run around stumbling through different topics and when repeatedly I asked you what your point was you honestly couldn't even remember what we were talking about.

Now you want to turn your dislike for Shiv into a platform for you posting about your experience with Toni at FT86 but you haven't even commented on that.
As I said to you in your PM to me, if your now this great tuner then were you a fool back then? You kept telling him it was wrong but what were you doing when you broke it? You did a dig pull, you told everyone about it. IDK about you but when I KNOW something is bad I tend NOT to romp on my car. If the guy I paid doesn't listen then I take matters into my own hand and I have done that and can name shops and names but they have nothing to do with here. Had you spent 900 up front or even when you found the problem could you not have been using ECUTek to correct your own problem before it went boom?
Again the logic behind this statement escapes you, you are helping others and thats great we all do it but your not some godsend in the area and you have no seat time to call expertise you just started tuning and your doing it for free because get this;
Your Still Learning!
My god what a concept.

Then you claim its because of other vendors lying, guess what I have watched people scam others online and been taken advantage of across multiple car communities its just the way things go it seems. But using that as an excuse to be mad at someone who hasn't done anything yet... just because he might... yeah that make sense we should do the same to you since you recommended Toni right? Or should we judge you by how you actually handle things and where it ends up going not where it could or might go?

As for who sells more, my god were back to this. Again I am not out to make money, I help my local enthusiasts and thats it, why because someone took the time to help me. Thats how its supposed to work, we keep passing it down and sticking together helping. We may not all agree but its the comradery that binds us along with the passion. Not who can say "I did this, no I did this" its not a pissing contest but you sure like to turn it into one.
I am not out to sell OFT's I let everyone show how they feel and I do believe it is a good product for its purpose. I think it allows a lot of flexibility and has a stable future. Thats good for the community so I share my thoughts and others do as well and we all seem to enjoy it. Yet you hate it and post that constantly. So you tell me which one of us is actually bias here?

Nothing with me is profit driven, I help others because I realized a long time ago others took the time to help me. Thats how the community keeps getting passed down. I want to make a difference and help so I do what I can and I always will.
Will everyone like me, no. I tried to do so but it was pointless, some will hate you, some will like you, etc etc. But I do what I think is right because I am the only one who has to live with the choice. I make mistakes too, it happens but this blind sided bias is just uncalled for and you refuse to take the subtle hints. Well now its not so subtle.

That should cover most of it but hey i am sure I missed something so let me know. I am going to try and get to bed now.

Originally Posted by BobbyBlue86

I don't understand why there is an argument about the unknown.
@nelsmar you push your opinions down people's throats. I've seen it all over the forums. It's a huge turn off. People are excited about new stuff and this is a good thing because it means people love what they have and are excited to build it farther. No tuner is the same. I'm very new to the whole tuner platform and I've noticed that. We are all working towards one goal though right? We all want to squeeze every ounce out of these cars. But in truth that means a few good people breaking things and figuring out what not to do. The rest ride on the safety of the wake and reap most of the benefits but at a cost.

So calm down. Don't be so pushy. Not everyone has the same goals with their car that you do.