All season tires

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

You track on all all seasons? Won't they chunk off?

Any street tire will pretty much chunk or shred if tracked. All seasons actually have softer rubber than summer rubber ("hardness" of tread compound in a street tire is often misunderstood) so should dial in sooner but wash out sooner.

The latest ultra high performance all seasons are better than full on summer tires of five years ago.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

Driving slow is not difficult. Being able to stop when you need to in snow is beyond the scope of "driver skill" someone has acquired over "forty winters"

A 15 year old will stop sooner, steer better, and maintain control at higher speeds with a snow tire than a 55 year old on all seasons.

There is a reason regions of Canada REQUIRE snow tires.

Overall the bottom line is, do your absolute best to avoid driving in snow. There are too many variables in those conditions. You could have a lifted 4x4 machine and someone on slicks is trying to get home and totals your car.

Oddly, only Quebec mandates winter tire use in Canada. Many Canadians use all season tires, not winter tires. Ironically, it was easy to legislate in Quebec because 90% of drivers already used winter tires.

Stopping on snow is easy only if you have winter tires. All season tires are not significantly better than summer tires for braking.

High performance winter tires do well on ice and snow and are phenomenally good on bare roads. I've used a worn set of Pirelli Sottozeros as summer tires and they are better than any all season tire even when air temperatures reach 30C.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by Suberman

The latest ultra high performance all seasons are better than full on summer tires of five years ago.

That's because they are basically newer summer tires, with a bare minimum to qualify as A/S tires.

[caradd]

Had the Conti's DWS on my E92 335i and if you value steering feel don't get these. The sidewalls are too soft made the car feel like I was driving on Marshmallows.

Ended up switching to Hankook Icebars winters on the 335 and they actually felt better then the A/S DWS'.

Picked up a set of Dunlop Winter Sport 3D for the BRZ looking forward to seeing how they feel this winter.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

That's because they are basically newer summer tires, with a bare minimum to qualify as A/S tires.

Not so, they also equal or better the older all season tires in mild winter conditions. They perform like summer tires of a few years ago but still deliver cold weather grip.

Tire technology continues to race ahead with new tires delivering ever better performance year after year.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

Driving slow is not difficult. Being able to stop when you need to in snow is beyond the scope of "driver skill" someone has acquired over "forty winters"

A 15 year old will stop sooner, steer better, and maintain control at higher speeds with a snow tire than a 55 year old on all seasons.

There is a reason regions of Canada REQUIRE snow tires.

Overall the bottom line is, do your absolute best to avoid driving in snow. There are too many variables in those conditions. You could have a lifted 4x4 machine and someone on slicks is trying to get home and totals your car.

This is just so wrong I can't let it lie unanswered.

Stopping on snow represents no special challenges but experience does count a lot. With ABS and traction control less experience is required to handle snow or ice but it still helps.

By all means avoid driving in snow if you are not competent to do so. Don't ever try to drive in winter on high performance summer tires, including the Primacy HP. They just don't grip.

No 15 year old can outdrive me on any public road in anything on any tires under any conditions.

The only places in Canada that require use of snow tires by law are Quebec, certain mountain roads in BC, the sunshine village ski access road and the ice fields parkway in Alberta.

Canadians can drive on anything in winter. Smart Canadians fit snow tires for winter.

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by Suberman

This is just so wrong I can't let it lie unanswered.

Stopping on snow represents no special challenges but experience does count a lot. With ABS and traction control less experience is required to handle snow or ice but it still helps.

By all means avoid driving in snow if you are not competent to do so. Don't ever try to drive in winter on high performance summer tires, including the Primacy HP. They just don't grip.

No 15 year old can outdrive me on any public road in anything on any tires under any conditions.

The only places in Canada that require use of snow tires by law are Quebec, certain mountain roads in BC, the sunshine village ski access road and the ice fields parkway in Alberta.

Canadians can drive on anything in winter. Smart Canadians fit snow tires for winter.

I believe his point was that dedicated winter tires will always have a higher amount of grip in the snow than all-seasons, and that no amount of experience will increase the mechanical grip available.

[Draco-REX]

Look, here's a simple analogy:

All-seasons =

Summer and winter tires =

Both get the job done, but the dedicated tires will do the job better in every way.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Not so, they also equal or better the older all season tires in mild winter conditions. They perform like summer tires of a few years ago but still deliver cold weather grip.

Tire technology continues to race ahead with new tires delivering ever better performance year after year.

Whatever dude. All A/S tires are a product of marketing.
Any good A/S tire will be worse than good "Summer" aka 3-season tire, because getting some loose snow traction requires giving up 3-season grip.

UHP A/S tire is a particula marketing gimmick, aimed at extracting a few more $$ from people who from some came to think that UHP A/S will be better in the wet than summer tires (which that cost less). They CANNOT have good winter drip in principle, since having that requires a film of water to stick to the tire. Whereas good wet grip requires shedding water. So UHP A/S tires, in order to deliver decent wet grip as its buyers expect cannot gain much snow grip, otherwise it will fail to sell.

So, UHP A/S are basically rebranded Summer tires with very small tweaks.

Caveat: Extreme Performance summer tires are really the only true "summer" tires that should not be driven below 50F. They are basically designed for track, hence much higher temperatures.

If one wants A/S tires that are half-decent in the snow, one should get tires with a "mountain symbol and M+S" mark. That one means something about winter grip. There aren't make A/S tires that qualify. I haven't searched, but Nokian's WR# might be the only ones.

[rainmonkey]

So I just tried to go snowboarding in Wachusett, MA. I have A/S 3's (AS3 from here on out) and have only driven for about 2-3k miles on them. It was great going up there, no snow, just rain, but as we got closer to the mountain it started snowing...and HARD. When we got to the mountain, I said screw it, we're going home since the snow wasn't letting up and I didn't want to get stuck there.

On the way back, GPS told me to go up a slight hill, car couldn't do it, it was slipping too much to get traction at the base of the hill - probably as steep as the bunny hill for intro skiers. To add insult to injury, an STI came cruising along in the other lane no problems at all(>.<) To get out, I simply rolled back until it was flat enough I could make a u-turn and take a different route.

Heading back on Rt. 2, the snow got worse and was starting to accumulate a bit more. It was pretty scary driving back - I was following several cars hoping they'd kinda 'pave' the way for me (which they did a bit) but I still went really slowly.
At some points, just going through a really really slight turn (think changing lanes) the tail started to slide out. The front end slid a bit into the other lane while correcting - thankfully there were no other cars in that one. Happened at least 3 times.

So just wanted to let you guys know that while the A/S 3's are great all around - including freezing temperatures - they're still not adequate for snow (I think the forecast said 2 inches at the time). Kinda makes me wish I had gotten the WRX hahaha.

It was probably the scariest drive I've ever had - 1 hour 40 minutes from the mountain back into Boston.

Bummed I didn't get to snowboard, but relieved I made it back without incident.

[Suberman]

Probably not the tires. I have Pirelli Sottozeros and the car just isn't good in winter. Period.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

Whatever dude. All A/S tires are a product of marketing.
Any good A/S tire will be worse than good "Summer" aka 3-season tire, because getting some loose snow traction requires giving up 3-season grip.

UHP A/S tire is a particula marketing gimmick, aimed at extracting a few more $$ from people who from some came to think that UHP A/S will be better in the wet than summer tires (which that cost less). They CANNOT have good winter drip in principle, since having that requires a film of water to stick to the tire. Whereas good wet grip requires shedding water. So UHP A/S tires, in order to deliver decent wet grip as its buyers expect cannot gain much snow grip, otherwise it will fail to sell.

So, UHP A/S are basically rebranded Summer tires with very small tweaks.

Caveat: Extreme Performance summer tires are really the only true "summer" tires that should not be driven below 50F. They are basically designed for track, hence much higher temperatures.

If one wants A/S tires that are half-decent in the snow, one should get tires with a "mountain symbol and M+S" mark. That one means something about winter grip. There aren't make A/S tires that qualify. I haven't searched, but Nokian's WR# might be the only ones.

You're so far out of date you should be embarrassed.

Michelin has really cracked this problem. The other manufacturers will too just as soon as they figure out how Michelin did it.

Anything with a Mountain Snowflake symbol isn't an all season tire, it's a winter tire.

Only Nokian makes such a tire that is also safe to drive in summer.

[dsgerbc]

Originally Posted by Suberman

You're so far out of date you should be embarrassed.

Michelin has really cracked this problem. The other manufacturers will too just as soon as they figure out how Michelin did it.

Anything with a Mountain Snowflake symbol isn't an all season tire, it's a winter tire.

Only Nokian makes such a tire that is also safe to drive in summer.

Michelin cracked nothing, in fact they will never make A/S tire better than a 3-season tire at same cost. They just lifted the whole grip envelope.

Good Michelin A/S still suck donkey butt relative to good Michelin summer tires in 3-season driving. Anyone familiar with logic should understand that.
Go spew bullshit somewhere else.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

Michelin cracked nothing, in fact they will never make A/S tire better than a 3-season tire at same cost. They just lifted the whole grip envelope.

Good Michelin A/S still suck donkey butt relative to good Michelin summer tires in 3-season driving. Anyone familiar with logic should understand that.
Go spew bullshit somewhere else.

Ya got numbers for that? Define "3 season" first. Michelin itself claims they equal or beat the 3 season tires from other manufacturers. They kept quiet about their own product. Michelin lying about that and in front of the press? They could get used for making claims that are untrue, but only in the US of course, which is where they made those claims.

I'd say Michelin has proved they have cracked the code.

http://www.michelinman.com/tire-sele...3/tire-details

http://wot.motortrend.com/michelin-p...st-307753.html

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/whee...-s-3-tire.html

Your turn....