Disabled the driving aids. Here are my impressions.

[diss7]

Originally Posted by bestwheelbase

That sounds all well and good but it's only slightly more informed than those blind speculations being thrown around. I for one want to see the technical details of the system. I find it hard to believe that Toyota would create a system that has an unsafe rear heavy bias when the electronics are nonfunctional. It just doesn't make sense. It would render the car unsafe to drive if an electrical failure kills the ABS circuit.

I suspect this car behaves like every other car... If the ABS system fails it illuminates a warning lamp on the gauge panel and the car continues to have properly proportioned brakes albeit without the ability to pump them when lockup is detected.

Still, having said that, I think it best we find the accurate technical details either from someone here who knows or by asking Toyota directly.

Surely someone here has the service manual that shows the system layout right?

Slightly more informed than speculation?

I gave direct feedback, including tyre and pad compounds I used.

I agree with some of the rest you have said. You can over analyse it all you like. GO and try it yourself, and determine whether you feel the bias is right or not. Don't base it on what someone else TELLS you is right. Which is why I specifically said to take my advice as feedback, but to try it yourself.

[diss7]

Brake bias is subjective to the driver, track, conditions, tyres, pads.

Don't believe that there is a perfect brake bias.

Its like an alignment.

In MY EXPERIENCE I had to make the rear brake compound more aggressive than the front, and run a much shitter rear tyre compound than the front, to get noticeable 'dangerous' rear bias.

When I bumped the front pad compound up to a Poly D (which is still definitely a street pad) this corrected the bias problem (not that it was ever a problem, I specfically set the car up stupidly to enduce this effect), even with keeping the same tyre compounds (semi on front, street on rear) Which is still very oversteery, and will still cause a spin if you hit the brakes hard in a corner, but straight line it was fine.

Same tyres all round, sensible pad compound choice, you shouldnt having a problem. But again, I have the lower spec rear brakes.

I'm going to try Poly D's, and Poly H's in the front at the track tomorrow, with semis up front and the stock crap tyres on the rear, and see how it goes. I think it'll be quite fun.

[Perihelion]

title is sexist, what about well-experienced super-confident track-tested road-reckless women drivers? can they pull the abs too?

[bestwheelbase]

Originally Posted by diss7

Slightly more informed than speculation?

I gave direct feedback, including tyre and pad compounds I used.

I agree with some of the rest you have said. You can over analyse it all you like. GO and try it yourself, and determine whether you feel the bias is right or not. Don't base it on what someone else TELLS you is right. Which is why I specifically said to take my advice as feedback, but to try it yourself.

Yeah, I appreciate your feedback very much. And it would be nice to see the technical specifications too. I do not think it is over-analyzing to establish a baseline understanding of the braking system components.

[enwave]

Originally Posted by diss7

They are not voodoo, that keeps you invincible if let on, and cursed to death if you turn them off.

I just, wow. I cbf.

No shit, Sherlock. Nobody here is claiming that. What they are saying is that there could be situations that are out of your control (indefinite you, not you specifically diss7) where ABS could potentially help. Most of those situations tend to be evasive maneuvers where other cars are involved and you could potentially hurt another human being.

Diss7, I think you've established that you believe yourself to be equipped to handle those situations without ABS. That's probably true, but you're the 1%. I consider myself a very experienced driver with experience on both ABS and non-ABS systems, and I'll still choose to leave them on when they are available. They have the potential to help me, and not because I'M a crappy driver, but because there are situations where a computer can react appropriately faster than I can, and most of those possible situations will come as a surprise.

You can't double standard here -- there are benefits to ABS and it would be wise to acknowledge them even if you decide the benefits don't outweigh the drawbacks. And give a few of the other people here some credit: we aren't all simpletons. Some of us are just more cautious and don't care if ABS is engaged for daily driving. We believe the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, and I think that is acceptable for us to make that decision, don't you?

Interested to hear your brake bias testing results from tomorrow. I would anticipate that brake bias will not change significantly or that you'll be able to find the right pads to get to the bias (or lack thereof) that you like.

EDIT: this is all true for me assuming I'm not on like, gravel or snow where I could potentially plow to a stop much more quickly. Would love a more full ABS disable in those situations, but the pedal dance has been sufficient for me in my snow situations so far.



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[diss7]

Originally Posted by enwave

You can't double standard here -- there are benefits to ABS and it would be wise to acknowledge them even if you decide the benefits don't outweigh the drawbacks. And give a few of the other people here some credit: we aren't all simpletons. Some of us are just more cautious and don't care if ABS is engaged for daily driving. We believe the benefits outweigh the drawbacks, and I think that is acceptable for us to make that decision, don't you?

I appreciate that this thread has gotten massively long, and not all of what I have said is being taken in.

But to reitterate..
I am not a street driving lunatic.
I have stated numerous times, including in the first post, that I still see the use of these aids, for low attention driving.
I have also stated that I would like the aids on a switch, based on this fuse, so I have a full off, or on feature.
The purpose was to provide feedback on my impressions on fully disabling the aids. Something that I believe is beneficial if you are driving aggresively, on your local favourite road, or track; AND have the confidence and ability in your own driving, that you probably gained while owning a car without any aids to rely on.

What is annoying, is when people think that turning these off will result in eventual and certain doom.

[enwave]

Originally Posted by diss7

I am not a street driving lunatic.
I have stated numerous times, including in the first post, that I still see the use of these aids, for low attention driving.

Some of us see the use of the aids because of the low attention driving of other people on the road. You're quick to blame the driver for being low attention, what about the other people around the driver? That's where this thread gets condescending. It's as though you believe there is never a valid reason to use ABS unless you are a crappy driver. And that simply isn't true.


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[Vracer111]

I've never had the ABS activate for me on the street (I always drive with TC "off" ("off" is a lie, it's still on...EBFD will sort out the rear end for you in wet conditions and I know there is something going on with the differential somehow...), but have had it activate on track when I forgot to disable the Traction Control system and everything was full on and then in Sport Mode. The FR-S ABS system is freaking annoying on track on sticky tires and stock brake system in anything less than "off"... the system has no idea what to do and freaks out nearly every single corner with the brake pedal pulsing like mad, the EBFD hijacking your 4 corners and therefore fine yaw control, and the ECM cutting engine power. Sport Mode is better than "all on", but the ABS is still annoying, EBFD thinking it's still boss and you're still doing it wrong, and the ECM is still holding the engine power hostage.

What I have had happen daily driving is when I occasionally forget to hold down the traction button for ~5 seconds and get the EBFD acting up and ECM cutting power when doing a simple 90 degree short radius merge turn in from near a dead stop at a particular intersection... which is why I always run with the TC "off" on the street. Nothing like merging in when traffic is coming up on you and the car decides "I'm going to active the brakes and cut power on you because I don't think this was the perfect way to do it...." Stupid FR-S, you don't complain nor shudder one bit when the systems are "off" in the same exact circumstances. The car is good enough for me on the street with TC "off", but I will be pulling the fuse on track to see what it's like.

This car was hailed as a back to basics drivers with a pure driving experience...yet the electronic aids are so ingrained into it that "TC off" is a flat out lie and the chassis is actively doing things with you, yanking your chain in letting you think the driving experience is not filtered and you are fully driving the car. If you are fully in sync with the car you can feel the slight disconnect - the TC is still quite active and will intervene very subtly when it's "off". The chassis is pretty awesome on this car, but the electronic systems cutting in haven't let me fully experience it yet.

Summary: I don't mind the artificial/false driving experience on the road with TC "off" and ABS fully functional...it is fun enough and handles great even if the chassis is actually being held back and kept in check. On track though I will be pulling the fuse to get rid of all the "help" it thinks is needed... don't need or want ABS/stability system engaged on track in a low end production sports car with this good a chassis, they are crutches/hindrances in that circumstance - not drivers aids at all. The less filtering of the driving experience from the car the better...

[diss7]

Originally Posted by enwave

Some of us see the use of the aids because of the low attention driving of other people on the road. You're quick to blame the driver for being low attention, what about the other people around the driver? That's where this thread gets condescending. It's as though you believe there is never a valid reason to use ABS unless you are a crappy driver. And that simply isn't true.


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If there is other low attention users on the road, and you are driving with low attention, then yes aids are useful.
I have said NUMEROUS times, that aids are useful, in low attention situations, whether you are a good or crappy driver.
I'm not blaming drivers for being low attention, I am stating that if you are not paying attention aids are helpful, I have admitted to this and stated this is why I would ideally like them on a switch.

But if you are a good driver, paying attention, the aids are a hinderence, because a good driver, that is paying attention, can brake/stop and handle the car better/safer/faster than the aids can.

I like your idea of a switch so as to disable them for on a track. But leaving the aids off while on the public roads, IMO is not safe. ABS is a useful tool for street driving especially when your just driving down the highway, and some person jumps across 3 lanes of traffic and slams on the brakes in front of you to jump off and make there exit they almost missed.

The reason for these tools being made and REQUIRED on new vehicles is because of the FACT that the computer can react faster than a human can. Either way, we should enjoy driving while we can, there's a reason that cars will be driving themselves in a few more years...

[diss7]

Originally Posted by SilentAngel

I like your idea of a switch so as to disable them for on a track. But leaving the aids off while on the public roads, IMO is not safe. ABS is a useful tool for street driving especially when your just driving down the highway, and some person jumps across 3 lanes of traffic and slams on the brakes in front of you to jump off and make there exit they almost missed.

The reason for these tools being made and REQUIRED on new vehicles is because of the FACT that the computer can react faster than a human can. Either way, we should enjoy driving while we can, there's a reason that cars will be driving themselves in a few more years...

You realise the computer can only do something after the human has alerted it to a situation?

Originally Posted by diss7

You realise the computer can only do something after the human has alerted it to a situation?

Currently, yes. In a few years no. What i was referring to is the fact that if your impulse reaction is to slam the brake pedal, you'll crash. With the ABS disabled you'll have to take the extra step to control the car while trying to slow down quickly, while avoiding the idiot in of you. Doesn't matter who the person is they can't be prepared for everything 360 degrees around them the entire time. So when something does happen its best to be set up/prepared in the best condition it can be, for the worst possible outcome.

[cgrey]

We need more of these threads. They're so useful.

[WolfsFang]

Never had my traction kick in when i was going around a corner sideways. People who say this are just crazy. Also would love to see someone with no ABS drive around my town when there are ice on the roads.