Disabled the driving aids. Here are my impressions.

[Target70]

Originally Posted by SigmaHyperion

Quote: This is great as it slows you down much faster than sliding
This is actually a fallacy that's been repeated in this thread numerous times....in many situations it actually increases, sometimes significantly, your distance to stop.

Quote: I live in Georgia, so no snow. After having the FRS for 2 days I "lost control" twice with all aids on, because the aids were on. A simple throttle blip around a corner on a deserted 4 lane at night in the rain, resulted in ABS locking up one of my front tires and stopping me in the middle of the street. the other time I ended up in the oncoming lane. (rain/night/no traffic). The reason is simple I didn't know how to react.

But, in regards to your specific situation -- It's hard to say of course without having experienced it, but that really sounds like a real problem that I would be taking up with Scion to me. By definition, ABS will not "lock up" a tire -- it is anti-lock. Nor should the situation you describe make any other system (TCS/DSC/etc) engage a single front brake automatically -- and NONE should "lock"

I chose my words carefully in the first quote. I agree that you can stop faster by limit breaking. However, I said above that ABS would stop you quicker than Sliding to a stop, especially from higher speed on a hot day. If the tire is stuck locked up so that the same small patch of rubber is sliding agasinst the road, it can overheat, even liquify causing it to give very little friction at all.

I have not experienced the "pumping action" ABS in the FRS so I do not know how much it has improved over the years. But every other car with ABS I have been in, when I slammed on the breaks I would hear and feel each tire individually increase braking force till it began to slide(lock up) and then released and began braking again. you hear this errr...errr...errr..errr. sound resonating from around the car. While you are not sliding per se, the tires are locking up at times. Just like the knock sensor doesn't negate knock, it just adapts the engine to remove it, ABS doesn't (usually)negate lockup's it just alleviates the condition it. Perhaps I did not choose my words carefully enough in the second quote though, I used locked up to describe a hard unexpected brake, from a single front tire (I suspect to keep me from spinning) combined with no power from the throttle due to engine cut. I had all nannies turned on because I forgot to turn them off, so I ended up stopped in the middle of the road instead of powering through the slide till I straitened out. I suspect it is similar to what would happen to anyone who tries to drift with nannies on.

[Photonic]

Oh I want to add, The ABS on my Genesis is astonishingly the best ABS system I have ever used in my life.

At Atlanta Motorsports park I just floor the brake pedal at turn 1 every time (at the end of the longest straight away on track ..im at the top of 4th gear) The tires nible, bite, chirp and hold at what I feel to be great peak slip and all I do is just hold my foot down until I want to turn in.

great feel for an ABS. I did several 130 to zero stops in the car just flooring the ABS out behind my house and it ..does a damn good job it actually threshold brakes. Not all ABS systems are equal. but this ABS is tuned for the stock super grippy tires ...I still am not sure about the issue of ABS adapting to more grip.

To me it seems odd, but people seem to attest to the fact "More grip confuses the ABS" I do not see how. That would mean ABS is a rote table like a fuel map or a timing map that says "do this now". as far as I know ABS on our cars looks for sudden "peaks" in velocity change. IE a sudden decrease in rotational speed beyond a set value = tire limit is probably being exceeded. Ie something more like ..if its reading a consistent slope of wheel revolutions that would go from 1,000 a minute down to 500 in the span of 100 milliseconds, ABS cuts on because such a "sudden change" in rotation the wheel might be locking up ..

Any thoughts on how that works?

[dsgerbc]

Older Subaru ABS systems were dreadful in the snow, to the extent where you're stop quicker if you did not brake at all, just engine-braked. For the record - the fastest way to stop in snow - to fully lock-up the wheels and let the growing pile of snow you plow with your wheels stop you. Which way you'd end up facing, however, is anyone's guess.

Regular Subarus still scare the crap out of me, but this car and STIs have much better ABS, so I've had no desire to disable it so far. In my previous Subaru (spec.b), however, I did. And I had a switch to disable it in the right conditions (snow, and nobody around).

The issue with pulling the fuse is (most likely) inactive EBD. Older cars had proportioning valves, this one doesn't, it needs the pump to work to generate front/rear pressure differentials. So I wouldn't pull the fuse for track. You'd get waaaaaay too much rear bias, and you'd be spinning all over. The 'pedal dance' probably keeps EBD working. It's probably irrelevant for braking on the snow though, since the rate of deceleration isn't gonna be very high.

The issue is that re-enabling ABS would likely require recycling ignition, which is kinda inconvenient. I haven't looked into the possibility of on-the-fly ABS on/off, it might be possible, but probably gonna be hard to implement.

[enwave]

The best part of this thread is how everyone thinks they're right, when really everybody is right.

ABS is good sometimes. ABS is bad sometimes. Good drivers don't always need ABS. Bad drivers don't always need ABS. Some cars have good ABS. Some cars have bad ABS.

Who the hell cares, honestly? Drive how you want, and if you underestimate your abilities and cause damage to you or someone else, then it's on you big time. If you estimated your abilities accurately and disabling ABS helps you avoid problems, god speed and have fun.

Too many keyboard warriors in this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[phloozy]

I am actually really good at driving drunk! So the way I fixed my car FOR FREE was by getting plastered before I get going!! It is such an easy fix I am surprised more of you arent doing it!

[stugray]

Originally Posted by Seattle944t

Electronic Brake force Distribution (EBD). Cars no longer include a mechanical brake pressure proportioning valve in the brake system to reduce line pressure to the rear brakes under hard braking. Without EBD (i.e. ABS out) the rear tires are more likely to lock before the front which results in a braking caused spin.

Originally Posted by dsgerbc

The issue with pulling the fuse is (most likely) inactive EBD. Older cars had proportioning valves, this one doesn't, it needs the pump to work to generate front/rear pressure differentials. So I wouldn't pull the fuse for track. You'd get waaaaaay too much rear bias, and you'd be spinning all over. The 'pedal dance' probably keeps EBD working. It's probably irrelevant for braking on the snow though, since the rate of deceleration isn't gonna be very high.

Exactly!

Originally Posted by stugray

2 - I can think of one example where using a car that was "designed with nannies in mind" might not work too well with the nannies off...... Rear brake bias.
What is the rear brake bias if the ABS is disabled? I have no idea, but if it is not correct (designed with nannies OFF in mind) then it will not be right with them off.

[diss7]

Originally Posted by phloozy

This may be the stupidest thread I have read in a while. Grats you turned your ABS off.... Keep it to yourself all you are doing is putting other people in danger by trying to convince young uneducated drivers that this is something they should also do. Pretty immature for someone who seems to be old as fuck.

I'm 31.

I'm not bragging or trying to convince anyone of anything. I've said all along that if you feel confident in your own abilities, there are gains to be had from fully disabling these features. I've tried to give feedback on what these gains are.

If you dont want to turn them off, then don't. Clearly they are there for simpletons like yourself.

[diss7]

Regarding the comments about rear bias. IMO these are false. As I said, I've tried my setup with various pads and tyres, and it simply isnt true. The brake bias is fine.

The only setup I tried where I found the rear bias to be too much for some, was when I had BP10 compound in the front (which is the least aggresive pad Wilwood make) with TRD pads in the rear. I also had semi slicks on the front and near bald 205 street tyres on the back. With that setup, the car would look the rear well before the front.
But, I didnt think the bias was too bad.Thats what I was trying to accomplish (getting the rear to lock before the front) Heh.

You can speculate all you like, I've tried and tested it. With even tyre compounds, and similar pad compounds, the bias is fine.

Half the people in this thread wouldnt know how to feel bias differences anyway. If you need ABS to brake, I'm talking to you.

Off to the track tomorrow. Going to take some different rear tyres and just use semis up front. For lulz more than anything.

EDIT- and before you get your knickers in a twist about me purposely making the rear tyres lock before the front, I was trying different setups to see at what point I found the bias to be off for circuit/grip driving. I wanted to know if I needed to install a proportioning valve to reduce rear braking it correct the bias - as so many have said that the bias would be so far out. I don't believe that it is, so I won't be installing any form of bias correction. BUT, what I will add is that my car as LOWER spec rear brakes that USDM cars. I have the overseas model with non ventilated rear discs. I would encourage someone else who is able to provide feedback on a USDM spec setup for anyone with a USDM spec car.

[diss7]

Originally Posted by phloozy

I am actually really good at driving drunk! So the way I fixed my car FOR FREE was by getting plastered before I get going!! It is such an easy fix I am surprised more of you arent doing it!

How did you get plastered for free?

I'm not serious by the way.

I'm just looking forward to you saying something else stupid, so I wanted to quote you to encourage it.


As per a previous suggestion, I have renamed this thread more accurately to describe its contents, so that its more easily located via search.

[phloozy]

Originally Posted by diss7

I'm 31.

I'm not bragging or trying to convince anyone of anything. I've said all along that if you feel confident in your own abilities, there are gains to be had from fully disabling these features. I've tried to give feedback on what these gains are.

If you dont want to turn them off, then don't. Clearly they are there for simpletons like yourself.

Gains? You are driving hard enough on public roads that the abs is holding you back? You are right im the simpleton, but at least I don't actively try to kill others and myself every time I step in my vehicle. No one would have said anything negative if you said you pulled the fuse during track events. Doing this on public roads puts other innocent people in the line of fire but you must be too stupid and selfish to realize that.

[diss7]

Originally Posted by phloozy

Gains? You are driving hard enough on public roads that the abs is holding you back? You are right im the simpleton, but at least I don't actively try to kill others and myself every time I step in my vehicle. No one would have said anything negative if you said you pulled the fuse during track events. Doing this on public roads puts other innocent people in the line of fire but you must be too stupid and selfish to realize that.

I guarantee that my car stop in less distance without aids, than yours does with aids. Mostly because I use semi slicks. You seriously think that driving around with no ABS is "actively trying to kill someone" Do you know what actively means? Do you think the same thing when you see a car on the road from an era when ABS didnt exist? Again, simpleton.

Why did you get your supercharger? You are putting everyone in danger using this, as it generates more power than the car was designed to take, and provides more acceleration than is needed.

Sense the tone of the last paragraph. I am highlighting your hypocricy.

[phloozy]

Originally Posted by diss7

I guarantee that my car stop in less distance without aids, than yours does with aids. Mostly because I use semi slicks. You seriously think that driving around with no ABS is "actively trying to kill someone" Do you know what actively means? Do you think the same thing when you see a car on the road from an era when ABS didnt exist? Again, simpleton.

Why did you get your supercharger? You are putting everyone in danger using this, as it generates more power than the car was designed to take, and provides more acceleration than is needed.

Sense the tone of the last paragraph. I am highlighting your hypocricy.

You are missing the point clearly. I agree there may be no NEED for abs and turning it off wont get you killed. But driving at the limit where you feel restricted by your ABS on a daily basis is what is moronic. ABS or not all it will take is 1 deer, 1 biker, 1 runner wearing all black, 1 drunk driver swerving to your lane to get you and someone else killed.

I get that its a "drivers" car and like you said I felt the need to SC mine so I am not against spirited driving but I draw the line at treating the road like its my personal race track.

Lastly to throw myself under the bus, I did a few cruises this summer and pushed the car very hard on public roads and had the time of my life. After though I looked back and felt like a completely irresponsible idiot.

[bestwheelbase]

Originally Posted by diss7

Regarding the comments about rear bias. IMO these are false. As I said, I've tried my setup with various pads and tyres, and it simply isnt true.

You can speculate all you like, I've tried and tested it. With even tyre compounds, and similar pad compounds, the bias is fine.

That sounds all well and good but it's only slightly more informed than those blind speculations being thrown around. I for one want to see the technical details of the system. I find it hard to believe that Toyota would create a system that has an unsafe rear heavy bias when the electronics are nonfunctional. It just doesn't make sense. It would render the car unsafe to drive if an electrical failure kills the ABS circuit.

I suspect this car behaves like every other car... If the ABS system fails it illuminates a warning lamp on the gauge panel and the car continues to have properly proportioned brakes albeit without the ability to pump them when lockup is detected.

Still, having said that, I think it best we find the accurate technical details either from someone here who knows or by asking Toyota directly.

Surely someone here has the service manual that shows the system layout right?

[diss7]

It is disturbing/frightening how mnay people believe that these aids are like a safe/danger switch.

They are there to assist the shortcomings of the driver.

They are not voodoo, that keeps you invincible if let on, and cursed to death if you turn them off.

I just, wow. I cbf.