Disabled the driving aids. Here are my impressions.

[akuhei]

Originally Posted by stugray

SigmaHyperion

I dont know what you are smoking but I completely disagree with almost everything you said above.
Please post some references to these "conclusions" made by the NHTSB, etc.

My experience with ABS has been the opposite of what you attempt to explain above.

For high performance driving, I agree disabling ABS is good, for everyday driving ABS is MUCH safer - In my experience. (30 years driving with & without ABS)

The ONLY time I have experienced ABS taking longer to stop is on gravel.

Note that ABS simulates "pumping the brakes", which is (was?) to be used in less than ideal conditions to stop a vehicle without ABS. It merely simulates it much faster than you and your foot can do. Therefore, ABS isnt the fastest that you can slow down. Instead, threshold (or limit) braking is the fastest method. However, in dangerous/emergency situations, its difficult (perhaps impossible) to find such a threshold. ABS helps by pumping the brakes for you. But it would, in general, lengthen your breaking distance because it is not keeping that threshold (aka..its pumping and releasing the brakes to give you traction).

As for OP, go for it. vehicles without ABS have been around for years. If that is the feel and desire you want, its your choice. I wont do it (except perhaps eventually on a track), but I see no reason for all the fuss here about your decision.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by SigmaHyperion

NHTSA paper entitled "“Preliminary Evaluation of the Effectiveness of Antilock Brake Systems for Passenger Cars" results were, quote, "All types of run-off-road crashes – rollovers, side impacts with fixed objects and frontal impacts with fixed objects – increased significantly with ABS. "

NHTSA concluded that "“Rollovers and side impacts with fixed objects… had the highest increases with ABS. Nonfatal crashes increased by 28 percent, and fatal crashes by 40 percent.”

NHTSA continues to re-affirm that ABS only reduces braking distance in, quote, "some particular instances".

NHTSA's own website states "ABS is designed to help the driver maintain control of the vehicle during emergency braking situations, not make the car stop more quickly."

For those in Canada, on their version of the NHTSA's website, in the FAQ on whether ABS stops a vehicle in a shorter distance they emphatically, [b]in bold[/i] state "NO!"

IIHS released an article entitled "Antilock Brakes Don’t Reduce Fatal Crashes; People in Cars With Antilocks at Greater Risks- But Unclear Why.”

General Motors R&D concluded "“it is unlikely that on dry roads ABS can materially reduce risk"

The Society of Automotive Enginers concluded "ABS was found to be associated with a 51 percent increase in fatal rollover crashes on dry roads. For fatal side impact crashes, ABS produced a 69 percent increase for unfavorable road conditions, and a 61 percent increase for favorable road conditions.”

THANK YOU!

I've been saying all this time that All this "Safety" bullshit is just the government brainwashing people.

[stugray]

Re: "NHTSA paper entitled "“Preliminary Evaluation of the Effectiveness of Antilock Brake Systems for Passenger Cars" results were, quote, "All types of run-off-road crashes – rollovers, side impacts with fixed objects and frontal impacts with fixed objects – increased significantly with ABS. ""

You DO realize that paper was written in 1996 right?
In 1920 I am sure that there were many papers written on how dangerous flying in aircraft was...

Re: NHTSA continues to re-affirm
"ABS may shorten stopping distances on wet or slippery roads and many systems will shorten stopping distances on dry roads. On very soft surfaces, such as loose gravel or unpacked snow, an ABS system may actually lengthen stopping distances."

Exactly what I said.

Re: For those in Canada, on their version of the NHTSA's website, in the FAQ on whether ABS stops a vehicle in a shorter distance they emphatically, [b]in bold[/i] state "NO!"

Yeah they look like a definitive authority on the technical aspect of automotive engineering.

Re: IIHS released an article entitled

"We need more study to find out why antilocks are impressive on the test track but not on the road." The article pretty clearly explains that the reason appears to be operator error.


Re: General Motors R&D concluded "“it is unlikely that on dry roads ABS can materially reduce risk" 404 - File or directory not found

Re: The Society of Automotive Enginers concluded
( Note: Written in 1999)

"Kahane [1] found that, with the introduction of ABS, involvements in multi-vehicle crashes involving fatalities on wet roads were significantly reduced by 24 percent, and nonfatal crashes by 14 percent."

"For dry roads, ABS was found to be associated with a 17 percent decrease in rollover crashes, a 13 percent decrease in frontal impacts with parked vehicles or fixed objects, and a 7 percent increase in side impacts with parked cars or fixed objects."

"For pedestrian crashes, ABS was associated with a 30 percent reduction on dry roads and a 10 percent reduction in unfavorable road conditions (i.e., wet, snowy, icy, gravel)."

"In conclusion, the results of this study do not appear to indicate that a problem exists due to driver crash avoidance behavior or driver interaction with ABS which would contribute to the apparent increase in fatal single-vehicle crashes as identified in conjunction with vehicles transitioning from conventional to antilock brake systems."

Context, Context, Context.

I still say: (and 30 years of driving says) ABS on the street is very valuable and I can see a HUGE difference in stopping ability. On the track - disable it.

[stugray]

http://www.monash.edu.au/miri/resear...ectiveness.pdf

(2004)

However, results of the analyses of changes in crash type distributions associated with ABS were consistent with other studies. ABS equipped vehicles were found to have a smaller proportion of crashes with other vehicles and a greater proportion of run-off-road crashes than vehicles without ABS.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...0145750100032X

They confirm that ABS does have the potential to reduce the number of accidents, but show that this has not been fully achieved. One reason may be that many drivers have little or no knowledge of ABS.

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_s...n_cars_abs.htm

“A meta-analysis of research studies shows that ABS give a relatively small, but statistically significant reduction in the number of crashes, when all levels of severity and types of crashes are taken together.”

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811182.PDF

“ABS is quite effective in nonfatal crashes, reducing the overall crash-
involvement rate by 6 percent in passenger cars (confidence bounds: 4% to 8%) and by 8 percent in LTVs (confidence bounds: 3% to 11%). The combination of electronic stability control (ESC) and ABS will prevent a large proportion of fatal and nonfatal crashes. “

I can play the "google some stuff and quote things out of context" game as well

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by ericmpena

I imagine when you lose control because your fuse is pulled it would feel something like this.

That can happen regardless of nannies, so your argument is moot...

[ericmpena]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

That can happen regardless of nannies, so your argument is moot...

There's no argument. I simply said this is how I'd imagine it would FEEL to not have control of the direction of your car.
Sure this can happen with ABS. Hell, the SUV in the video probably had ABS....but everyone knows you can't control your direction in a skid as well as you can with ABS.
Going back to what I said, this video shows how I imagine it feels not having any control over the direction of your car if you were to skid with your ABS fuse pulled out. Do you disagree with that? Or are you arguing with yourself about something I didn't say?

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by ericmpena

There's no argument. I simply said this is how I'd imagine it would FEEL to not have control of the direction of your car.
Sure this can happen with ABS. Hell, the SUV in the video probably had ABS....but everyone knows you can't control your direction in a skid as well as you can with ABS.
Going back to what I said, this video shows how I imagine it feels not having any control over the direction of your car if you were to skid with your ABS fuse pulled out. Do you disagree with that? Or are you arguing with yourself about something I didn't say?

What makes you say he won't have control of the car... I've had to drive a 2011 M3 without ABS or TC for about 1000 miles because the module malfunctioned... even to it to a half mile race and abused that bitch and never lost control... hell, I even tried locking up the brakes just to test how it behaved, and I don't know, maybe it's my instincts, but I tend to pump the gas pedal when I feel my tires lock up...

[ericmpena]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

What makes you say he won't have control of the car... I've had to drive a 2011 M3 without ABS or TC for about 1000 miles because the module malfunctioned... even to it to a half mile race and abused that bitch and never lost control... hell, I even tried locking up the brakes just to test how it behaved, and I don't know, maybe it's my instincts, but I tend to pump the gas pedal when I feel my tires lock up...

Good for you. I also drove a car without ABS for years and 99% of the time it was awesome. But you know...there was that one time where I actually needed ABS and it made all the difference. That 1% of the time is what everyone is worried about. Someone already posted...but yeah 99% ABS sucks, but it's that split second moment when you actually need it that makes all the difference. There's no winning argument. It's all a matter of opinion. My take on the situation as stated before is to save it for the track, not on public roads. Plain and simple. It's there for a reason.

[Seattle944t]

Originally Posted by diss7

Explain what concessions have been made to require the aids?

Not generic assumptions. Give direction examples of why any of the aids are there for any reason other than to make up for the short comings of the driver.

<snip>

Electronic Brake force Distribution (EBD). Cars no longer include a mechanical brake pressure proportioning valve in the brake system to reduce line pressure to the rear brakes under hard braking. Without EBD (i.e. ABS out) the rear tires are more likely to lock before the front which results in a braking caused spin.

Originally Posted by SigmaHyperion

NHTSA paper entitled "“Preliminary Evaluation of the Effectiveness of Antilock Brake Systems for Passenger Cars" results were, quote, "All types of run-off-road crashes – rollovers, side impacts with fixed objects and frontal impacts with fixed objects – increased significantly with ABS. "

NHTSA concluded that "“Rollovers and side impacts with fixed objects… had the highest increases with ABS. Nonfatal crashes increased by 28 percent, and fatal crashes by 40 percent.”

NHTSA continues to re-affirm that ABS only reduces braking distance in, quote, "some particular instances".

NHTSA's own website states "ABS is designed to help the driver maintain control of the vehicle during emergency braking situations, not make the car stop more quickly."

For those in Canada, on their version of the NHTSA's website, in the FAQ on whether ABS stops a vehicle in a shorter distance they emphatically, [b]in bold[/i] state "NO!"

IIHS released an article entitled "Antilock Brakes Don’t Reduce Fatal Crashes; People in Cars With Antilocks at Greater Risks- But Unclear Why.”

General Motors R&D concluded "“it is unlikely that on dry roads ABS can materially reduce risk"

The Society of Automotive Enginers concluded "ABS was found to be associated with a 51 percent increase in fatal rollover crashes on dry roads. For fatal side impact crashes, ABS produced a 69 percent increase for unfavorable road conditions, and a 61 percent increase for favorable road conditions.”

The problem is that all those are old studies and the "unknown" reason for the higher rates is/was driver training. Drivers were trained to pump the brakes when the brake system fails i.e. a lack of brake pressure. First gen ABS systems the pedal would drop to the floor when the system engaged - i.e. indicating brake failure to a driver that didn't know about ABS. Pumping the brakes when the ABS system kicks in results in a total loss of all brake force at the pads.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/200...er-risk-by-51/

The AAA Foundation for Traffic safety has determined that improper driver steering in an ABS-equipped vehicle can send it veering out of control. In their tests, jerking the wheel (as if trying to steer around an obstacle) in a 35 mph panic stop sent ABS-equipped cars careening across two lane widths. (Without the ABS, the car skidded in a straight line.) This behavior may account for the higher roll-over rates for ABS-equipped vehicles. Other research revealed that many drivers don’t use ABS properly; they pump the pedal as they would regular brakes.

Driver training now accounts for ABS and doesn't recommend pumping the brakes, and it's also included in the NHTSA and other web links that are more up to date than the studies from the 90's.

Now, the fact is that a good (80th percentile) driver can stop faster without ABS because they know how to threshold brake. The other fact is that 80% of the drivers have no concept of threshold braking as it isn't taught outside of racing schools - at least in the U.S. and most will stop faster with ABS because they will just lock up the tires and skid which creates much longer stopping distances than with ABS.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by ericmpena

Good for you. I also drove a car without ABS for years and 99% of the time it was awesome. But you know...there was that one time where I actually needed ABS and it made all the difference. That 1% of the time is what everyone is worried about. Someone already posted...but yeah 99% ABS sucks, but it's that split second moment when you actually need it that makes all the difference. There's no winning argument. It's all a matter of opinion. My take on the situation as stated before is to save it for the track, not on public roads. Plain and simple. It's there for a reason.

The probability of that 1% is so low that, as an engineer, we don't even design for more than 90%

[Photonic]

Good job pulling your ABS fuse.

I live in the south, we don't get snow. I have plenty of rain experience, I have driven rear wheel drive cars before the era of ABS and TCS. I know how to drive, and I prefer to freely lateralize the car in hazard avoidance rather than have EBD and TCS keep the car neutral, your options for attitude control are much more variable when you can upset the car freely at will AND you know what you are doing.

I know how to drive, you probably do too. And I prefer the car to move in a predictable manner so I can respond unconsciously to sudden changes.

Its a marginal safety device mandated federally because "bad drivers" also own cars, and it reduces accidents caused by driver error.

Sit down in front of some good books and really put some thought into your driving techniques, go to a racing school (skip barber does good classes for the cost a nice tax return) , tear up a few sets of tires, practice in the rain and stop whining about the OP.

I'm kind of baffled at what appears to be ..blatantly flaunted inexperience from a forum of people who bought "the best drivers car of the decade"

And lets not forget, that 1% being spoke of can be mitigated to 0.01 if you expand your situational awareness. I always drive like I am on the track as far as spatial awareness, course reading.

Driving is "Dangerous" so YOU should take driving very very seriously.

[hmong337]

Originally Posted by Photonic

Good job pulling your ABS fuse.

I live in the south, we don't get snow. I have plenty of rain experience, I have driven rear wheel drive cars before the era of ABS and TCS. I know how to drive, and I prefer to freely lateralize the car in hazard avoidance rather than have EBD and TCS keep the car neutral, your options for attitude control are much more variable when you can upset the car freely at will AND you know what you are doing.

I know how to drive, you probably do too. And I prefer the car to move in a predictable manner so I can respond unconsciously to sudden changes.

Its a marginal safety device mandated federally because "bad drivers" also own cars, and it reduces accidents caused by driver error.

Sit down in front of some good books and really put some thought into your driving techniques, go to a racing school (skip barber does good classes for the cost a nice tax return) , tear up a few sets of tires, practice in the rain and stop whining about the OP.

I'm kind of baffled at what appears to be ..blatantly flaunted inexperience from a forum of people who bought "the best drivers car of the decade"

The TRUTH!

[humfrz]

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[zenki_levin]

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