max "potential" NA power.

[Zaneman]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

I ran into this "N/A" issue in the Mitsu 4G Eclipse GT V6 crowd. A big N/A V6 that nothing made a huge difference on. There was a supercharger kit but the company that designed it didn't even make an intercooler for it lol.

All in all, N/A is good if you want to run some bolt-ons but don't expect some miracle cam to do anything on an N/A 2.0L. In N/A format, this platform will never exceed 210whp. This is good power and I'd be happy with that, but FI is definitely the way to go for this engine to make any sort of substantial power IMO

My previous small displacement NA experience was that of the Toyota 2zz. A 1.8L engine that produced roughly 145-155 whp. I can remember the naysayers claiming 200whp would never happen NA. It happened and now there are cars making 230whp.

This platform has been around less then 2 years so far. I think there are many more things to come.

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by Zaneman

My previous small displacement NA experience was that of the Toyota 2zz. A 1.8L engine that produced roughly 145-155 whp. I can remember the naysayers claiming 200whp would never happen NA. It happened and now there are cars making 230whp.

This platform has been around less then 2 years so far. I think there are many more things to come.

I work closely with all the manufacturers. There isn't much going on for N/A

[suaveflooder]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

I work closely with all the manufacturers. There isn't much going on for N/A

This car reminds me a lot of the M3. Basically the manufacturer took a lot of steps with the E46 to squeeze every pony out of the engine. Not much to add to it NA unless you stroke it. In our case, that has even been taken out of the cards by the manufacturer.

I've come to two options to make "power." (1) Lighten the car more, add gears to the differential and lighten rotational mass so that 180 horse on pump will be enough to get the car up to speed quickly, or (2) go FI. Doesn't seem to be many more options with this engine.

[Captain Insano]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

250hp crank = 208-210whp

Right, I believe people are already hitting 200 whp or slightly over with E85 + tune + intake/exhaust bolt-ons. Some people are making 190ish without the E85.


Like I said, 250 crank hp is already close with just bolt ons and 275 crank hp I think is possible with cams and head work. Probably pretty easily actually especially considering higher revving power band and the numbers that come along with it breathing up high in the power band.


My perspective also is this - a new WRX at stock power level is 260-270 crank hp IIRC. If I could have that power level NA in a BRZ with a couple hundred pounds weight loss on top of that... Well that would just be awesome in my book. I'm not really looking for "big" power (280+whp) NA considering this car can run at sub-2600 lbs streetable pretty easily with good weight mods. This car would be an absolute fucking blast at 225+ NA whp and sub-2600 lbs. I can say this with certainty considering how much I love it now with 100 lb weight loss and stock power level.

[StormTrooper]

2650 is very easy...the next 100 lbs off will cost you a few pennies.

190whp is relatively cheap but getting to 225 will also cost quite a bit.

[Captain Insano]

Yep, don't disagree with any of that. after dropping 150-200 lbs it would get very expensive to continue to try to drop weight. And NA once you get past bolt-ons + tune it's gonna get expensive. No doubt.

[Dephective]

Deny claims* related to what the modification affects, not voiding.

And we aren't talking about what's easiest to get power, there is a large market that just don't want the headaches of FI. Even FI from factory is a headache if you do anything other than drive it around down. The feel you get from a smooth N/A motor is completely different experience than a kitted motor. Apparently I have to justify desiring a certain experience from my car.

Whether it will happen in the next 6 months, or a few years down the road, better believe it will happen and it will be streetable. There is still a market for N/A, regardless of how cheap and easy slapping a kit on it is. There's a reason why they want it too. Regardless of how many people are running kits safely, there is still way more stress under this application than an N/A car would see. Thermal, in-cylinder pressures, etc.

As for streetability of K series motors, I know of 2 personally that are daily driven over 100K miles now on built motors, never anything more than normal maintenance and beaten on like all Hondas are. both making 230whp+ on 93oct. This wasn't what you think is the best bang for your buck. This was never about that. It was an honest question.

*given current limits with simple bolt ons, what would more invasive measures yield while still staying N/A?* in a nutshell.

Bump idle up if you have an issue with cams, pretty simple.

Side note, 272 cams are pretty common for EJ motors that are still street driven vehicles.


I love it when people say something can't be done.

[Dipstik-sportech]

Ask my buddy with the 275whp b series likes driving his car on the street on ms109. Almost anything can be done if you make it rain and don't care how it drives. But realistically without e85 and a trust fund, right now high HP na isn't in the cards yet.

the frozen north

[StormTrooper]

And how many people are willing to drop 10k on just engine mods?

I think 210whp is probably the limit without going inside the block. not sure how much more is possible. Maybe 230/240.

Any cams being developed ?

[Dephective]

Originally Posted by StormTrooper

And how many people are willing to drop 10k on just engine mods?

I think 210whp is probably the limit without going inside the block. not sure how much more is possible. Maybe 230/240.

Any cams being developed ?

you wouldn't need to necessarily build the motor. just head work and you could achieve 240whp I'd imagine. the pistons and rods are apparently capable of taking a beating, but they just aren't very light. only reason I suggested it.

[Dephective]

also asking a B series to make 100% more power over stock on a 20year old motor vs 40% more hp over stock on a really well designed current generation motor is hardly comparable. I get your point, but to make B series motors hit those numbers, your cam profile has got to be outrageous. there's still room for more aggressive profile with keeping streetability. and with so many people running e85 anyways you could see that number easy at 8400rpm.

[Dipstik-sportech]

Yes but not everywhere has e85 and don't kid yourself a b series isnt an ancient platform. If anything the heads flow as good or better that ours do stock. Plus they have the advantage of VTEC we don't, and no the variable timing is nowhere near the same

the frozen north

[350matt]

so what rpm are people running to?

as the stock limiter is 7400 and I know that at 7650rpm the inlet valves supposedly go into 'float'

So to get 8400 you're going to need a set of valve springs at least

also on this motor bear in mind the lump has to come out to fit cams anyway so while you're there.......

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by 350matt

as the stock limiter is 7400 and I know that at 7650rpm the inlet valves supposedly go into 'float'

Where did you read that? 250 rpm isn't much of safety margin.