Winter Driving?

[kALMIGHTY]

Originally Posted by Kazuya

So I was speeding this weekend, lol ikr.

Anyways, car started shaking at 170/km, I was reading the tires before I bought em, they said max 190/km, is that why or did my brother eff my balancing/putting it on?

Experts with ph.d in cars plz

I have a phd (pretty huge **** )
My guess is the balancing is off. The speed maximum probably wouldn't cause the car to shake. It's most likely because of road conditions and non-perfect balancing that's not too obvious at lower speeds.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Steve

Actually the thread is informative until page 6 or when you see Suberman start picking the car apart because he can't drive it. At that point the thread just becomes purely entertainment, and its good.

EDIT: Sorry, he can drive the car, but only him and other experts can point out the design flaws that make the car undrivable in wet and winter conditions.

"Undrivable" is a direct quote from Evo after wet track testing. Wet, not icy.

When Evo track tested the Litchfield modified BRZ they reported it "oversteered everywhere" unlike the quicker Porsche Cayman which doesn't oversteer when pushed to minimum lap times. This is after Litchfield tried to make the car better with coilovers and up-rated and adjustable roll bars, bigger wheels, better tires and a supercharger. If Litchfield can't fix this car with adjustable roll bars then nobody can. This is in the dry. Top Gear reports the handling is "patchy" in the wet and that the car needs to be driven "with respect". No kidding.

Even the very poor American based journalists agree that the car is easy to induce oversteer and tiring to drive in a straight line. No kidding.

The trouble is most of you apparently can't drive well enough to know what's wrong with this car.

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by Suberman

I can't help it if you can't see what I and other experts see.

Sources, please.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by HunterGreene

Sources, please.

Done

And

Dusted.

Thenkyuvrymuch.

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Done

And

Dusted.

Thenkyuvrymuch.

Are you talking about the flurry of links you posted with no explanation of any of them? Are you really that lazy that you can't type a couple words in summary? Will I ever stop questioning you? I can answer that last one--no.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Power oversteer? On this car? Are you mad?

You're joking right?? In your own words:

Originally Posted by Suberman

the transient oversteer under sudden power applications in tight corners.

Power oversteer is oversteer caused by adding too much power too soon in a corner.

Originally Posted by Suberman

"Undrivable" is a direct quote from Evo after wet track testing. Wet, not icy.

When Evo track tested the Litchfield modified BRZ they reported it "oversteered everywhere" unlike the quicker Porsche Cayman which doesn't oversteer when pushed to minimum lap times. This is after Litchfield tried to make the car better with coilovers and up-rated and adjustable roll bars, bigger wheels, better tires and a supercharger. If Litchfield can't fix this car with adjustable roll bars then nobody can. This is in the dry. Top Gear reports the handling is "patchy" in the wet and that the car needs to be driven "with respect". No kidding.

Even the very poor American based journalists agree that the car is easy to induce oversteer and tiring to drive in a straight line. No kidding.

The trouble is most of you apparently can't drive well enough to know what's wrong with this car.

1) Glad your only source of info is magazines, not real world enthusiasts. Have you happened to see video of what Chris Harris thinks of it?

2) Did you also happen to read the reviews by both those magazines that state the car is one of the most fun drivers cars ever built?

3) Did you happen to see that Top Gear rated it the car of the year, beating out EVERY other car they tested in addition to being the winner of their "speed week" shootout where it beat out hyper cars as the best drivers car?

It wasn't just top gear either, many magazines, shows, etc named it their favorite:

http://blog.toyota.co.uk/toyota-gt86...-the-year-2012

http://blog.toyota.co.uk/toyota-gt86...ear-speed-week

Since you like Top Gear so much, you might also have noticed that on the power lap board the GT86 is about 1/2 second faster than an e46 M3, with the GT86 running a wet lap and the M3 in the dry. Sure sounds like a lemon to me

[Kfresh23]

Originally Posted by Suberman

"Undrivable" is a direct quote from Evo after wet track testing. Wet, not icy.

When Evo track tested the Litchfield modified BRZ they reported it "oversteered everywhere" unlike the quicker Porsche Cayman which doesn't oversteer when pushed to minimum lap times. This is after Litchfield tried to make the car better with coilovers and up-rated and adjustable roll bars, bigger wheels, better tires and a supercharger. If Litchfield can't fix this car with adjustable roll bars then nobody can. This is in the dry. Top Gear reports the handling is "patchy" in the wet and that the car needs to be driven "with respect". No kidding.

Even the very poor American based journalists agree that the car is easy to induce oversteer and tiring to drive in a straight line. No kidding.

The trouble is most of you apparently can't drive well enough to know what's wrong with this car.

Jeremy Clarkson (Top Gear), picked the GT86 (FRS/BRZ) as the CAR OF THE YEAR last year......there is a reason someone like Clarkson would say this, and it's simple......because it IS!! I value an organization like Top Gear, and an "expert" like Mr. Clarkson over most anyone out there. I have had ZERO issue driving my car in the winter so far, and we have already had a 3 day blizzard with HUGE drifts, and snow deep enough for me to witness a Hummer stuck (with all 4 wheels spinning), and me weave my way around him without issue! I have michelin x-ice tires (which in my opinion are not even that great), and I have placed 4 sandbags in the trunk (50lbs each), which helps. Yes, the back end is tail happy, and kicks out slightly during acceleration, but in no way is it scary, or does it effect my ability to drive in the winter. The control to me is first rate, as everytime the end strats to let go, the car's aids kick in, and bring it back to center without even more than a slight twitch! Almost any other RWD car out there will act in this way....based on where the drive wheels are, as compared to where the weight is. The car is regarded by many as an affordable sports car that enables you to have "ferrari" fun, while doing legal speeds!
I understand that no car is perfect, and you can, and always will find flaws in vehicles..........but let's appreciate how awesome this car actually is, and how well it performs in ALL conditions...haters are going to be haters, but real drivers motor on with a smile .

[Ralph Spoilsport]

Originally Posted by Suberman

I drove mine for two winters on Pirelli P6 tires [...]. No problems with grip or chassis balance but then that was one of the all time great road cars.

If true, an amazing feat that most mortals could never match (I had an 86 GTI on P600s, you see, and I drove those in mild snow once, and once only. I was on the phone to Tire Rack 30 minutes later).

But the 86 chassis is "undrivable".

<ding, light goes on>

I believe I have identified the problem. BRZ rear suspension and axle is made out of

[Steve]

^^^^ /thread

[Suberman]

I was playing around with the car today in chinook conditions. I've concluded the effects are due to the Torsen having a very tight bias ratio.

I actually thought this months ago when the same bizarre behaviour was exhibited merely in the wet.

With TRC off the car is unable to use the grip at the rear axle. It isn't the tires because the car stops fine and turns in fine.

Interestingly, if I switch TRC off but not fully off then on my car TRC turns itself back on if the stability control is called upon. Then you can't switch it if again without switching off the ignition and restarting.

With VSC off the car is just weird to drive on snow. The rear brakes are constantly trying to straighten the car out.

The easiest to drive is with all stability controls left on but then the transient behaviour is just strange.

Most normal feel is with all stability controls fully off, but then that rear end can't use the grip available.

As for Clarkson's opinion , well he thinks oversteer is just fine. He didn't try to drive the 86 on snow. I'd be more interested in the opinions of the other two.

Car of the year is a bit OTT but ok it is a fun car to drive.

"If true" is just silly. Of course its true. Summer tires weren't as focused in 1982 as they are now. The P700 was undrivable in snow. The P6 quite manageable. Didn't try the P600 in snow but the P8 was terrible and that was an all season design.

This car should not power oversteer with 151 lb ft of torque. The fact that it dies indicates the chassis is no good. Again at least one of you has missed the point completely. The inability of this car to use all of its puny power is one reason it's so slow.

There, I think that's everybody's views dealt with.

[Flyer]

I can power oversteer in my less than 100 lb·ft Miata...

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by Flyer

I can power oversteer in my less than 100 lb·ft Miata...

On summer temperature dry road?

Sure thing!

Your tires are worn out if you can.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Interestingly, if I switch TRC off but not fully off then on my car TRC turns itself back on if the stability control is called upon. Then you can't switch it if again without switching off the ignition and restarting.

If you push the TC button to turn it off, but don't hold it down, then it only disables it until you reach a certain speed (20mph?). You can't disable it above that speed, but if you slow down you can disable it again. If yours is behaving differently then something is broken.

Originally Posted by Suberman

With VSC off the car is just weird to drive on snow. The rear brakes are constantly trying to straighten the car out.

That is the text book definition of what stability control is supposed to do, if you push the VSC button you just put it into sport mode which gives you a tiny bit more slip angle before it intervenes. If you turn it fully off (by holding the TC button for 5 seconds) you won't feel it intervene at all.

Originally Posted by Suberman

Most normal feel is with all stability controls fully off, but then that rear end can't use the grip available.

As for Clarkson's opinion , well he thinks oversteer is just fine. He didn't try to drive the 86 on snow. I'd be more interested in the opinions of the other two.

Car of the year is a bit OTT but ok it is a fun car to drive.

This car should not power oversteer with 151 lb ft of torque. The fact that it dies indicates the chassis is no good. Again at least one of you has missed the point completely. The inability of this car to use all of its puny power is one reason it's so slow.

You're the only person I've heard try to claim the chassis is no good, every other review raves about how good it is and how it could handle another 50-100hp to really bring it alive.

Originally Posted by Suberman

On summer temperature dry road?

Sure thing!

Your tires are worn out if you can.

You keep bringing up the inability for it to get power oversteer, and how it doesn't have that much torque but you keep forgetting that it has very short gear ratios, so the torque getting to the road is actually quite high for a car of this weight and power output.

Poweroversteer doesn't take a lot of power, all it takes is more power than the tires can handle. If you're cornering at the limit of adhesion at a steady speed and then add more power you WILL get power oversteer without fail since the rear tires don't have enough grip for both forward and lateral grip. Don't confuse power oversteer with the ability to do big smokey drifts at any speed, they're very different.

I'm baffled most by why you still have your car if it's such a defective piece of junk? Drive it with respect in the snow and it's 100% fine, but if you try to drive it like it's a heavy AWD car of course it won't perform up to your expectations.

[Ralph Spoilsport]

Caution, thread drift.

I think a lot of people have been driving around too long in fwd and awd cars tuned for a crap load of understeer. Btw, I am guilty, and that's one reason I bought the BRZ.

I agree that the torsen is a bit tight for launching into traffic out of turn and I really made an ass out of myself in a hairpin once while getting calibrated. But I think it's brilliant at anything above 20 mph, treated with proper respect. If the 86 had been delivered with an open diff and VSC like the GR version WRX, this axle would be the hot ticket upgrade.

I get throttle steer on any dry freeway ramp (given the room). Not talking about major sliding or drifting and for all I know it may be as much rear suspension movement as tire slip angle, but it's useful, controllable and it's a blast. That's not a sign of a defective chassis to me.

And funny... when I do a search of reviews and articles at Evo on the GT86/BRZ I come up with an awful lot of positive press. A few random hits:


http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evoc...and_specs.html

http://www.evo.co.uk/videos/planetev...uick_test.html

(Henry can drive!)^

http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/27..._drifting.html

(not too relevant, but holy shit!)^

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evoc..._s_review.html

^ money quote: "Litchfield has developed this Spec S with very clear goals in mind and ultimate lap time wasn’t really in the script. Instead the idea was to significantly improve the performance without altering the car’s inherent balance or character and to broaden its operating window. " And this reads a little differently from what you wrote about the same tuner and their car, doesn't it?

I'm still looking for where anyone at Evo referred to the 86 platform as 'undriveable'.

And as far as the chassis being "slow" goes... that's nonsense. Plenty of track threads here to dispense with that notion.

Back to Winter... I don't give a hoot about Winter, my BRZ is garaged til better weather. The roads that are so much fun in the BRZ in Summer and Fall are ill suited to anything other than AWD in Winter (not much approaching "flat" around here). Oh, I could drive it, but I have more suitable hardware and I'd rather keep my brz toy nice, clean and rust free.