Winter Driving?

[brzr]

Originally Posted by congee

How long do you guys usually wait to warm up the car before taking off?

i don't really warm it up....it warms up a lot faster if i'm moving, so i sit in, put the key in, wait for the beeps to stop, start the engine, sit for a few seconds if the windows are too fogged up, and off i go

this car warms up in a second compared to the diesel that i had

plus i have heated seats that are almost instant so that helps to keep my butt warm until the warm air starts to flow

[jonboy99]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Torsen stuff

Thanks, that's what I thought. Wasn't there some talk of the 'e-diff' function still remaining partially active even with all traction control switched off though? I remember reading some stuff about needing 'the pedal dance' to fully deactivate. At the time I rolled my eyes at this feature and tutted, but it seems a bit of light braking to help the torsen may actually make a positive difference without actually acting as traction control and spoiling the fun.

Originally Posted by congee

How long do you guys usually wait to warm up the car before taking off?

About 10seconds usually, just like brzr. Letting it idle to warm up is more harmful in my completely unfounded opinion.

[navanodd]

Originally Posted by jonboy99

Thanks, that's what I thought. Wasn't there some talk of the 'e-diff' function still remaining partially active even with all traction control switched off though? I remember reading some stuff about needing 'the pedal dance' to fully deactivate. At the time I rolled my eyes at this feature and tutted, but it seems a bit of light braking to help the torsen may actually make a positive difference without actually acting as traction control and spoiling the fun.



About 10seconds usually, just like brzr. Letting it idle to warm up is more harmful in my completely unfounded opinion.

From what I've read, the only thing that disables the electronic LSD function is the 3-second hold of TRAC and VSC Sport when stopped and that turning TRAC off on its own still leaves the electronic LSD functional.

[GodDamage]

Fun times at walmart during ottawa snow storm a few weeks ago:

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by congee

How long do you guys usually wait to warm up the car before taking off?

I don't unless the windows need scraping it snow brushing. It is a mistake to warm a modern engine up by idling it, they run extremely lean.

They warm up faster by driving normally.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by navanodd

From what I've read, the only thing that disables the electronic LSD function is the 3-second hold of TRAC and VSC Sport when stopped and that turning TRAC off on its own still leaves the electronic LSD functional.

Hmm, I've had no trouble doing loop d loops with TRAC "off" but no attempt to press both buttons. Electronic diff seemed absent or at least unobtrusive.

When I select VSC the TRAC "off" light also illuminates.

I'll try the double press and see what happens.

This car is basically undrivable on ice on performance snow tires.

Calgary had ice frost descending on all the bridge decks and any polished sections of road today, the worst traction problem you can have. My BRZ simply will not drive straight ahead in these conditions.

The clutch is just bloody awful. No finesse to it whatsoever. Feels like a truck clutch.

Good job the steering is so good.

I can tell it's the chassis and nut the tires because the car stops fine. The rear suspension is just incorrectly designed for actually driving this car. It's a shame because it ruins the car as a driver's car.

[Suberman]

I did find starting off in second gear with lots of clutch slip handy in very slippery sections.

Oddly, I managed to stall the engine three times doing this though. This clutch is brutal, just an awful piece of work. Feels like it has high performance linings.

The BRZ is undrivable in severe winter conditions because the rear axle is just too loose. It isn't the tires because it stops just fine. It also steers fine until you apply just a tad too much power. Silly chassis and it's a shame.

[kALMIGHTY]

Originally Posted by Suberman

I did find starting off in second gear with lots of clutch slip handy in very slippery sections.

Oddly, I managed to stall the engine three times doing this though. This clutch is brutal, just an awful piece of work. Feels like it has high performance linings.

The BRZ is undrivable in severe winter conditions because the rear axle is just too loose. It isn't the tires because it stops just fine. It also steers fine until you apply just a tad too much power. Silly chassis and it's a shame.

The last couple of days in the snow have been an absolute blast for me though. I know what you mean about starting in second gear but I haven't had to do that yet on the winter tires.

And it's just so much fun to give it a little push and out goes the rear end. It's caught me off guard a few times and really given me that stomach tickle feeling you get on rollercoasters. So much fun! Definitely wakes you up when you're heading to class at 7 am

[tanner]

Any of you guys out west throw extra bags of sand or something in the trunk to add more weight? That's what we used to do, about four bags of water softener salt in the back of my parents' AE86 during the prairie winters in the 80s. Made a huge difference.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by tanner

Any of you guys out west throw extra bags of sand or something in the trunk to add more weight? That's what we used to do, about four bags of water softener salt in the back of my parents' AE86 during the prairie winters in the 80s. Made a huge difference.

Weight changes the weight distribution (yeah I know, you knew that but).

While grip may improve in a straight line I'm not sure this is the issue. I am still trying to figure out what's going on.

The car grips just fine for braking or steady throttle steering. It is just so tricky to modulate the rear grip as you squeeze the gas pedal. That is annoying. And slow. It isn't the tires. I've used Sottozeros on four other cars now and only the BRZ exhibits this behaviour. Mind you, three of the others were awd.

The car breaks grip at the rear under just about any power application even in straight line on a level road. That is not good for extreme winter conditions.

Stomach tickle is ok, sphincter tightening not so enjoyable.

[daiheadjai]

Originally Posted by kALMIGHTY

The last couple of days in the snow have been an absolute blast for me though. I know what you mean about starting in second gear but I haven't had to do that yet on the winter tires.

And it's just so much fun to give it a little push and out goes the rear end. It's caught me off guard a few times and really given me that stomach tickle feeling you get on rollercoasters. So much fun! Definitely wakes you up when you're heading to class at 7 am

I actually had that happen as I was exiting my condo underground parking the other day - totally unexpected, as I wasn't giving it much gas (only doing about 20kph in 2nd gear), and there's no ice/water in the garage....
Was wondering if it might be dirt/grit... Rear stepped out a bit and gave me a bit of a shock...

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by daiheadjai

I actually had that happen as I was exiting my condo underground parking the other day - totally unexpected, as I wasn't giving it much gas (only doing about 20kph in 2nd gear), and there's no ice/water in the garage....
Was wondering if it might be dirt/grit... Rear stepped out a bit and gave me a bit of a shock...

Perfectly normal, for this car. You must ALWAYS drive this car which is fun but can get wearing in some circumstances.

In my parkade the concrete floor has the float finish concrete, not brushed. This helps the parkade sweeping machine but can be very tricky in cars like the BRZ/FRS. Float finished concrete is very slippery if even a little dusty or damp.

Hanging the tail out in such a parkade can remodel your bodywork in a hurry, or at least cause you a moment or two of mild panic.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Hmm, I've had no trouble doing loop d loops with TRAC "off" but no attempt to press both buttons. Electronic diff seemed absent or at least unobtrusive.

When I select VSC the TRAC "off" light also illuminates.

I'll try the double press and see what happens.

Just some clarifications... There is no electronic diff in these cars, but the ECU will intervene if you get a wheel in the air and apply just a tiny bit of braking to the wheel unloading. Turning VSC and TC off doesn't disable this either, you need to do the diagnostic "pedal dance" to disable it.

VSC sport softens the TC but doesn't disable it, holding the TC button in for 3-5 seconds will disable the VSC and TC.

Originally Posted by Suberman

This car is basically undrivable on ice on performance snow tires.

The clutch is just bloody awful. No finesse to it whatsoever. Feels like a truck clutch.

Good job the steering is so good.

I can tell it's the chassis and nut the tires because the car stops fine. The rear suspension is just incorrectly designed for actually driving this car. It's a shame because it ruins the car as a driver's car.

Originally Posted by Suberman

I did find starting off in second gear with lots of clutch slip handy in very slippery sections.

Oddly, I managed to stall the engine three times doing this though. This clutch is brutal, just an awful piece of work. Feels like it has high performance linings.

The BRZ is undrivable in severe winter conditions because the rear axle is just too loose. It isn't the tires because it stops just fine. It also steers fine until you apply just a tad too much power. Silly chassis and it's a shame.

Originally Posted by Suberman

Weight changes the weight distribution (yeah I know, you knew that but).

While grip may improve in a straight line I'm not sure this is the issue. I am still trying to figure out what's going on.

The car grips just fine for braking or steady throttle steering. It is just so tricky to modulate the rear grip as you squeeze the gas pedal. That is annoying. And slow. It isn't the tires. I've used Sottozeros on four other cars now and only the BRZ exhibits this behaviour. Mind you, three of the others were awd.

The car breaks grip at the rear under just about any power application even in straight line on a level road. That is not good for extreme winter conditions.

Stomach tickle is ok, sphincter tightening not so enjoyable.

I can't believe what I'm reading... you bought a light, well balanced, neutral sports car, put performance snows on it and are complaining about it not having ice traction??? There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the rear suspension, everything you're complaining about it doing on ice is exactly what makes it such a good car when there is grip. A car like this NEEDS studless ice/snows if you plan to drive it on anything but dry roads in the winter, plain and simple.

Same goes the for the clutch, of course it's a sportier clutch... you bought a sports car. This car wasn't designed for icy Canadian winters (especially without studless ice/snow tires!), it was designed as a pure drivers car for dry conditions.

Compared to some other RWD cars I've driven in snow, these cars are actually pretty tame.

What other cars have you owned before this? Comparing how it handles in the snow to a heavier awd car will always result in disappointment.

[Suberman]

There is an electronic diff in our cars. That is what traction control means. The clutch is bloody awful. There is no need for a special clutch to handle 151 lb ft of torque. My turbo cars use a perfectly ordinary clutch and handle up to 350 lb ft of torque without the abrupt take up of the BRZ clutch. The BRZ clutch is a poorly designed and executed system from the pedal to the plate, just awful.

There is no need to apply the footbrake, the TRAC system uses ABS reservoir pressure to do so. The TRAC system will also cut the electronic throttle back in addition to applying the brake quite aggressively if you don't react by lifting off yourself. All these traction control systems work in the same fashion.

Some manufacturers (VW for example laughably calls it an EDL as if it actually does something to the differential) like to actually call traction control an electronic diff but it's just traction control. Electronically controlled diffs are another matter and also incorporate hydraulic and mechanical components modulated by software specific to the diff. The BRZ doesn't have that but those are not electronic diffs as they are partly mechanical.

Most, if not all, traction control systems also incorporate a yaw sensor and steering angle sensor allowing for stability control also using ABS reservoir pressure to induce counter yaw forces.

Your comments about the rear axle being ok are incorrect in my opinion. Just for example, my 1982 Alfa Romeo GTV6 was a better balanced car, 30 years ago. A pure drivers car for driving on the road as opposed to a track should drive the same way rain or shine or snow for that matter. If it doesn't then somebody screwed up somewhere. A Porsche cayman for example is a superb winter car and handles the track just fine. It isn't rocket science it's just suspension design. This BRZ is worse than a 70's BMW in winter, and that's saying something !

Was my Alfa light weight? Not for the times but it was lighter than a BRZ by a 100 kg or so. Was it powerful? Oddly, yes compared to the BRZ it produced 155 bhp and 151 lb ft. I drove mine for two winters on Pirelli P6 tires, one of the early "high performance" summer tires. Baby brother to the awesome P7 which was the very first high performance low profile street tire. No problems with grip or chassis balance but then that was one of the all time great road cars.

Anyway, vehicle weight is irrelevant to traction and stability. Friction doesn't work that way which is why it's referred to as a coefficient.

The high performance winter Sottozeros work fine on four other cars I've fitted them to and in any event are far superior to the P6 in winter!