Autocar: Ferrari F12 Berlinetta vs Toyota GT86 - which is more fun?

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

That's true to a point. But fit the FR-S/BRZ with 730 hp, plus the upgraded cooling, brakes, transmission, differential, bushings, suspension, and tires necessary to support that, and it'll be much, much harder to make it the driver's car that it is currently is.

This was one of the points the editors of MT brought up when they were doing the best driver's car competition of 2012. The BRZ was great and placed 4th (apparently Pobst wanted it as high as 2nd), but it only had 200 hp to manage. Yes the chassis could probably handle another 70-100 hp and maintain its current competence, but what about beyond that? Because that's really where the big dogs roam.

I think you just described the Venom GT. Lotus Exige with 1,000 bhp.....

I think you'll find the BRZ chassis design could handle 700+ bhp quite easily but by the time you upgrade all the bits to handle the forces involved you may as well buy the F12.


This illustrates the point neatly: does the unmodified BRZ make a more interesting car to drive then an unmodified F12?

If yes, then adding a bit more power could well make the BRZ even more appealing. I think for many of us a turbo or, better yet, a supercharger could well make a really good car even better. For some it would spoil the car.

I chose the BRZ over the Porsche Cayman for this reason. The BRZ was just better as a daily driver on real roads with real policemen and real traffic driven largely by incompetent drivers.

I happen to think the Cayman is the best sportscar money can buy at the moment, better than any Ferrari. But I prefer my BRZ by a large margin. Not because it is a better sportscar, it manifestly isn't, but because it is flat out more fun to drive every day. I will drive my BRZ anywhere, any time and in any weather. I will always leave it parked with a big smile on my face. It's that good.

[DarkSunrise]

Yeah I think just a bolt-on turbo or sc would be the sweet spot for this car, where you wouldn't need to start replacing expensive parts (internals, tranmission, differential), but it would still be entertaining in a straight line.

In a few years, I'll have to decide whether it's better to strap a turbo + supporting mods on my FR-S and make ~365 hp, or just buy a used C6 Z06.

FR-S: 2800 lbs / 365 hp = 7.7:1 lbs/hp
Z06: 3160 lbs / 505 hp = 6.3:1 lbs/hp

The Z06 wins the power-weight ratio, but the FR-S would probably have the better steering feel, transmission, seating position, and overall dimensions/weight. When you factor in reliability, I think the scale starts to tip heavily towards the Z06.

[Jason@DSG]

I actually mentioned this in another topic. Unless you regularly track your car, it's better to have a car you can actually "push" day to day. You'll actually enjoy it much more. Having a 730hp Ferrari is amazing....but you'd be able to use that 1% of the time.

I personally have a 450whp daily that I basically can't drive hard anywhere, especially with our crappy roads here in Montreal (tons of thaw and freezing during the winter). Other than the times I track it or take it to the drag strip, I'm cruising or driving in the city.

There's something to be said about a small, lightweight RWD that you can rip around in.

[AznKirby]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

I actually mentioned this in another topic. Unless you regularly track your car, it's better to have a car you can actually "push" day to day. You'll actually enjoy it much more. Having a 730hp Ferrari is amazing....but you'd be able to use that 1% of the time.

I personally have a 450whp daily that I basically can't drive hard anywhere, especially with our crappy roads here in Montreal (tons of thaw and freezing during the winter). Other than the times I track it or take it to the drag strip, I'm cruising or driving in the city.

There's something to be said about a small, lightweight RWD that you can rip around in.

That may be true, but "ripping" a 450whp car VS ripping a small, lightweight, 160whp rwd FRS isn't the same, now is it?

[Jason@DSG]

Originally Posted by AznKirby

That may be true, but "ripping" a 450whp car VS ripping a small, lightweight, 160whp rwd FRS isn't the same, now is it?

To be honest, it's kind of lame to have a ton of power and not really get to push it often. Sometimes I prefer taking my gf's car and actually pushing. 160hp pushed can be pretty fun, there's something satisfying about it.

Now, the rare occasion when I do get to push my 450whp....

[Fresh86]

haha okay if i had the money an frs would not even be an option.....f12 100%

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Suberman

As for the BRZ being good only because it is "underpowered" I think you'll find a good chassis is a good chassis pretty much regardless of engine power. Modern nutters running turbos and superchargers never complain that the chassis can't handle the extra power. They fit better tires and off they to in perfect control. Indeed, with a 2.5 turbo motor I think the BRZ could embarrass the F12 as it can any Porsche.

Oh, that's funny. Delusional, perhaps, but funny. Just putting a 2.5 turbo motor in the BRZ wouldn't even make it come close to the F12 or the higher end Porsches. Its chassis (good though it is) isn't as good, the engine wouldn't be as good, the suspension isn't as good, and in general, it would still be worse than the higher end sports cars/exotics (unless you redid so much of the car that it basically wasn't the same car any more).

Originally Posted by Suberman

There is little doubt the F12 has far too much power to use in bends, as the video explains, whereas the BRZ can put almost all of its power down all of the time, assuming you fit proper tires.

So don't push the pedal on the right down quite as much. The F12 still has more grip than the BRZ in every situation, and will be faster pretty much everywhere.

Originally Posted by Suberman

Given the reality of street driving not having to slow down for bends is a big entertainment plus.

The F12 will take any corner just as fast or faster than the BRZ would, so this isn't a plus for the BRZ.

Originally Posted by Suberman

As for choosing a car to drive every day I think the BRZ beats the F12 again.

I would probably agree with this, but that's only due to financial considerations.

Originally Posted by Suberman

I think you just described the Venom GT. Lotus Exige with 1,000 bhp.....

To be fair, it has a few other modifications too...

(I also haven't yet seen a pro review of one, so I think the jury is still out on how it feels to drive. I will admit though, I am curious)

Originally Posted by Suberman

I think you'll find the BRZ chassis design could handle 700+ bhp quite easily but by the time you upgrade all the bits to handle the forces involved you may as well buy the F12.

I doubt very much that a BRZ would handle 700HP without a significant amount of chassis strengthening and stiffening, as well as new suspension (not to mention a new drivetrain - that goes without saying).

Originally Posted by Suberman

This illustrates the point neatly: does the unmodified BRZ make a more interesting car to drive then an unmodified F12?

That's personal preference of course, but I think the F12 would be more interesting. You wouldn't be able to push it as much, obviously, but I think the Ferrari has an innate appeal that the BRZ can never match. As I said though, this one is definitely personal preference.

Originally Posted by Suberman

If yes, then adding a bit more power could well make the BRZ even more appealing. I think for many of us a turbo or, better yet, a supercharger could well make a really good car even better. For some it would spoil the car.

Yes, but power isn't the only thing that the Ferrari has over the BRZ. It's the whole package.

Originally Posted by Suberman

I chose the BRZ over the Porsche Cayman for this reason. The BRZ was just better as a daily driver on real roads with real policemen and real traffic driven largely by incompetent drivers.

I happen to disagree, but you might have already guessed that.

Originally Posted by Suberman

I happen to think the Cayman is the best sportscar money can buy at the moment, better than any Ferrari. But I prefer my BRZ by a large margin. Not because it is a better sportscar, it manifestly isn't, but because it is flat out more fun to drive every day. I will drive my BRZ anywhere, any time and in any weather. I will always leave it parked with a big smile on my face. It's that good.

I think the Cayman is an amazing sports car, don't get me wrong, but to call it better than any Ferrari is just delusional. There's nothing the Cayman does that a 458 doesn't do better, if we ignore cost/reliability concerns.

As for the later part of this paragraph? I've driven my Cayman in the rain, I've driven it in the fog, I've driven it on a dirt road, and I've even driven it on a slightly icy day once (which is absolutely terrifying on Pilot Super Sports, since they have zero ice grip). Every time (except maybe the time where it was icy and I wasn't expecting it), I leave my car with a smile. Do I do my best to minimize the risk to the car? Sure, but I enjoy driving it every day, and if I weren't going to enjoy driving it, then what was the point of getting it in the first place? If you wouldn't do this with a Cayman, then I agree you made the right choice, but it isn't the car's fault (nor should it be held as a point against the car) that you wouldn't feel comfortable daily driving it.

[Atropine]

Originally Posted by Jason@DSG

To be honest, it's kind of lame to have a ton of power and not really get to push it often. Sometimes I prefer taking my gf's car and actually pushing. 160hp pushed can be pretty fun, there's something satisfying about it.

Now, the rare occasion when I do get to push my 450whp....

I have had a lot of powerful cars.

Boxster S
Nismo 350Z
STI
SRT8 Challenger (470hp)

I could only drive those cars around on streets at 20% throttle.

I had tracked my Challenger and it was AWESOME at 140 mph.
That being said...its was meh at 35 mph.

I do wayyyyy more driving in the 25-60 mph range than the 100mph range.

That is why my BRZ is more fun for me.
@chrisl

IMHO the best cars for me under 100k would be...(no particular order)

BRZ/FR-S
Lotus Exige/Elise
Porsche Cayman/Boxster S

I do buy into the being able to really push a car to its limits is fun.

Reality...the "limits" of a Cayman or Exige vs the twins isn't really that close. There is a reason the Cayman and Lotus cost so much more (and I agree...Cayman is awesome...we chatted about my Boxster...loved it...IMS failure thingy scared me out of enjoying it fully).

The Twins are amazing affordable sports cars.

But I do tire of people putting down more expensive cars because those aren't the cars that they own.

I was super close to buying a Cayman (IMS failure thingy scared me off) or Elise (British cars have notoriously bad electronics) instead of the BRZ. I just wanted a warranty.

[Suberman]

I do not claim the BRZ is a better sportscar than a Cayman. I prefer the BRZ and, trust me, money was no object.

I do claim that the Cayman is a better sportscar than any Ferrari and I can defend that claim easily. Only a lunatic with money to burn would try to drive a Ferrari in winter here. I'd drive a Cayman (or indeed any Porsche as they are designed with winter driving in mind, the 911 probably being the second best sportscar money can buy, missing first only because they put the engine in the wrong place) year round, as indeed I intend to do with my BRZ.

End of argument.

[utekineir]

Originally Posted by Atropine

I could only drive those cars around on streets at 20% throttle.

I do wayyyyy more driving in the 25-60 mph range than the 100mph range.

Agree fully,

was a big factor in the purchase being in an area with tight windy roads where opening up on a regular basis just doesn't happen.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Suberman

I do claim that the Cayman is a better sportscar than any Ferrari and I can defend that claim easily. Only a lunatic with money to burn would try to drive a Ferrari in winter here. I'd drive a Cayman (or indeed any Porsche as they are designed with winter driving in mind, the 911 probably being the second best sportscar money can buy, missing first only because they put the engine in the wrong place) year round, as indeed I intend to do with my BRZ.

So, to be a good sports car, a car must be drivable in the winter? That's news to me...

(I guess an STi is the best sports car money can buy then, since it's a hoot in the snow)

[Dazza]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Only a lunatic with money to burn would try to drive a Ferrari in winter here.

Those crazy Italians

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L84V4X5OES0"]Driven: 2012 Ferrari FF - YouTube[/ame]

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Noob4Life

Ive never seen videos comparing the s2000 nor nissian Z series' to lotus', Ferraris or other cars costing at least 2x as much. Just sayin, there's something about this car that keeps people wanting to do comparison videos. Makes me pretty darn proud to own one lol

i think thats because at the time of those cars, there was competition in the price point those cars were selling in.

Originally Posted by Suberman

I think you just described the Venom GT. Lotus Exige with 1,000 bhp.....

I think you'll find the BRZ chassis design could handle 700+ bhp quite easily but by the time you upgrade all the bits to handle the forces involved you may as well buy the F12.


This illustrates the point neatly: does the unmodified BRZ make a more interesting car to drive then an unmodified F12?

If yes, then adding a bit more power could well make the BRZ even more appealing. I think for many of us a turbo or, better yet, a supercharger could well make a really good car even better. For some it would spoil the car.

I chose the BRZ over the Porsche Cayman for this reason. The BRZ was just better as a daily driver on real roads with real policemen and real traffic driven largely by incompetent drivers.

I happen to think the Cayman is the best sportscar money can buy at the moment, better than any Ferrari. But I prefer my BRZ by a large margin. Not because it is a better sportscar, it manifestly isn't, but because it is flat out more fun to drive every day. I will drive my BRZ anywhere, any time and in any weather. I will always leave it parked with a big smile on my face. It's that good.

the venom is a lot different than the elise.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i think thats because at the time of those cars, there was competition in the price point those cars were selling in.


the venom is a lot different than the elise.

Yes, because it is based on the Exige. However, the basic design, which is after all what we are talking about, is the same. The Venom is just a modified Exige. Really modified but still basically the same car.