FR-S vs. 370z, end all be all of discussions

[crazyyankeefan]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I know all about power to weight ratio (as in, 2815 lb, 500+hp).

For acceleration and general performance, yeah, power/weight rules.

But light weight is almost always a lot more fun and engaging to drive under 99th %ile real-world street usage. For some of us, anyway... For others, Mustangs, Genesis Coupes, etc. beckon...

I disagree. How agile and responsive a car is related to power-to-weight ratio significantly. So in your argument which a lighter car would be more fun and engaging, do you think FR-S/BRZ would handle better or respond more quickly than a Lamborghini or Ferrari just because it's lighter? A more powerful engine will certainly be heavier but it can also carry more weight, hence the theory of power-to-weight ratio. I must say it's kinda simple physics ideal.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

I disagree. How agile and responsive a car is related to power-to-weight ratio significantly. So in your argument which a lighter car would be more fun and engaging, do you think FR-S/BRZ would handle better or respond more quickly than a Lamborghini or Ferrari just because it's lighter? A more powerful engine will certainly be heavier but it can also carry more weight, hence the theory of power-to-weight ratio. I must say it's kinda simple physics ideal.

its not simple at all. i would say that in the world of legal street speeds the frs will be more fun than a lambo ever will

[unknown_370]

Originally Posted by Maxim

*looks at ur profile*

You drive an S2000......

If that's not accurate and you are now in a 370z, there's WELL documented issues with the brakes, including with upgraded pads activating the "ice-mode" ABS. All the forums I've looked through harp on it and many members urge people looking to track the car to be very careful or to not track it until the required upgrades are done. Even with high performance pads and brake fluid people are still experiencing extreme amounts of fade, far far greater than should be experienced on a performance car.

*shrug* I can only go by what I read from the people who own them. I know I would track the thing and once I got enough time in the car to actually be fast with it, it would be a major issue.

The data from Car and Driver frankly frightens me...the tests they did showed how much higher the temperatures are than normal.....yeah, just not for me.

As for the engine oil issue, it would not surprise me at all if the VVEL was the cause. The VQ series of engines came out a lonnngggggg time ago, and if it wasn't designed around that system to begin with (I don't know if it was, not familiar enough with the engine family), adding it in the interest of more power could understandably cause issues.

The other issue is there's just no airflow, to the front brakes or the engine compartment. There's a reason cold-air intakes have such a big benefit on the 370z

As a 370z owner and having tracked my car I would say the brake issue has been greatly overaggerated. It takes a lot for me to cook my brakes and you can feel the gradual fading of the brake over time. It tells you when you are pushing it. Either C & D now have amateur drivers or were looking for a failure.
I don't know about you guys but there are a few things I do to a stock factory bought car before tracking it...
1. Upgrade brake fluid. (Not done by C&D)
2. Upgrade brake lines. ( " )
3. Use track rotors... ( also not done)

The brake failure was there own fault because Nissan never called them track brakes. They were called sport brakes. C&D made that assumption and of all the cars that hit the track only C&D had that problem. Pointing out the brake failure on the Z is like never getting in a car again because you saw an accident happen once. Nissan brake calipers are track-capable, which means with a line, pad. Rotor and fluid change... they are good to go.
The oil issue is legit but a $500 oil cooler fixes that problem. It costs less than 2k to get the Z fully track ready. With 1.01g of grip and 13.1 second quarters for the auto and 13.3 for the manual. Its a hard handling car. Also it doesn't start @ $35k like someone posted. It starts at 32k. It intro'd @29.9 k. The Z has many breakthrough technologies and SRM (sequential rev-match) is only found on the sport pkg and can be shut off.

The FR-S is an awesome car. Designed beautifully, perfect balance and weight. I do feel the car is underpowered, but moreso in torque than HP. In a perfect world the FR-S would have been a solid 240hp/240lb-tq. But then again I wish my Z had 310lb-tq. We always want more... I wish both Z and FR-S had turbo options.. just because an aftermarket well made turbo kit will cost over 15k and I'm a power nut. I also love handling. I know the FR-S will be just as or more balanced than the almighty Miata...

In reality, the Z and the FR-S are no comparison. I'm not saying one is better than the other. But the Z is giving you sports car handling and balance mixed with brute muscle. When you mix the 2 you don't get 100% of either. The Z won't be as nimble as an FR-S and as fast as a mustang. If it did? I'm sure it would cost 6 figures.

The FR-S is awesome... but I love my Z. I wouldn't mind buying the FR-S as a second car daily driver. Save money on gas and have loads of fun in the corners while going to work. In a perfect world. The Z WOULD BE one of many sports cars I would own. The FR-S would also be on that list.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by unknown_370

As a 370z owner and having tracked my car I would say the brake issue has been greatly overaggerated. It takes a lot for me to cook my brakes and you can feel the gradual fading of the brake over time. It tells you when you are pushing it. Either C & D now have amateur drivers or were looking for a failure.
I don't know about you guys but there are a few things I do to a stock factory bought car before tracking it...
1. Upgrade brake fluid. (Not done by C&D)
2. Upgrade brake lines. ( " )
3. Use track rotors... ( also not done)

The brake failure was there own fault because Nissan never called them track brakes. They were called sport brakes. C&D made that assumption and of all the cars that hit the track only C&D had that problem. Pointing out the brake failure on the Z is like never getting in a car again because you saw an accident happen once. Nissan brake calipers are track-capable, which means with a line, pad. Rotor and fluid change... they are good to go.
The oil issue is legit but a $500 oil cooler fixes that problem. It costs less than 2k to get the Z fully track ready. With 1.01g of grip and 13.1 second quarters for the auto and 13.3 for the manual. Its a hard handling car. Also it doesn't start @ $35k like someone posted. It starts at 32k. It intro'd @29.9 k. The Z has many breakthrough technologies and SRM (sequential rev-match) is only found on the sport pkg and can be shut off.

The FR-S is an awesome car. Designed beautifully, perfect balance and weight. I do feel the car is underpowered, but moreso in torque than HP. In a perfect world the FR-S would have been a solid 240hp/240lb-tq. But then again I wish my Z had 310lb-tq. We always want more... I wish both Z and FR-S had turbo options.. just because an aftermarket well made turbo kit will cost over 15k and I'm a power nut. I also love handling. I know the FR-S will be just as or more balanced than the almighty Miata...

In reality, the Z and the FR-S are no comparison. I'm not saying one is better than the other. But the Z is giving you sports car handling and balance mixed with brute muscle. When you mix the 2 you don't get 100% of either. The Z won't be as nimble as an FR-S and as fast as a mustang. If it did? I'm sure it would cost 6 figures.

The FR-S is awesome... but I love my Z. I wouldn't mind buying the FR-S as a second car daily driver. Save money on gas and have loads of fun in the corners while going to work. In a perfect world. The Z WOULD BE one of many sports cars I would own. The FR-S would also be on that list.

Sorry, but the 370z brake issue is extremely well known by multiple publications as well as the community AND Nissan itself, as is the engine oil overheating problem. The 370z is the only vehicle that Car and Driver has ever had that did that during their lightning lap event....and it was the Nismo version. Not even a heavy Mustang GT that cost considerably less had anything approaching that level of fade.

Multiple publications have noted the issues, and Car and Driver went so far as to do a full follow up article testing different brake pads and fluids with the 370z to figure out exactly what had happened.

You've replaced the rotors, pads, brake fluid, etc, so of course you're not having the issues. The point is, they marketed a sports car that, in stock form, wasn't really safe for a basic track day. I have an issue with a company that would do that. Brake fade is fine...catastrophic loss of braking ability due to heat generation that's double the normal amount due to a design that extremely limits air-flow to the brakes...yeah that's not ok.

[Gardus@Supersprint]

A strange thing: the driving school at the Monza Race track uses 350z and 370z as RWD cars, I know a guy that works there and also owns

and never mentioned anything. They are supplied with special brake parts directly by Nissan Italia thought...

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

I disagree. How agile and responsive a car is related to power-to-weight ratio significantly.

Responsiveness to the accelerator pedal, yes. But more power/weight doesn't make a car more agile. Consider that with a higher-powered rwd car you have to bias more roll stiffness to the front to get the power to the ground. Two equivalent rwd cars, same weight, weight distribution, etc, both optimized for track performance, the car with the inferior power/weight is going to feel and be more responsive-handling, particularly at less than 7-8/10ths.

And that's not even accounting for the fact that with less power, you can run smaller, lighter-weight tires, wheels, and brakes. Big reductions in unsprung mass. ($$$ too!)

So in your argument which a lighter car would be more fun and engaging, do you think FR-S/BRZ would handle better or respond more quickly than a Lamborghini or Ferrari just because it's lighter?

More fun and engaging in the real world, on the street? Ditto what Fatoni said above (qualified "yes").

Better handling in terms of ultimate lateral acceleration? Not even close, the supercars will post better numbers for sure.

A more powerful engine will certainly be heavier but it can also carry more weight, hence the theory of power-to-weight ratio. I must say it's kinda simple physics ideal.

Already established, I *fully* understand the performance ramifications of power/weight. But there are reasons why my ~100mph-in-the-1/4 car feels lighter and more sprightly and "better-handling" on the street than my similar size/weight/weight-distribution 129+ car.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by Gardus

A strange thing: the driving school at the Monza Race track uses 350z and 370z as RWD cars, I know a guy that works there and also owns

and never mentioned anything. They are supplied with special brake parts directly by Nissan Italia thought...

That's standard practice though. Porsche driving schools have cars that are all equipped with the carbon ceramic brakes, schools that use corvettes use the Z06 or Grand Sport, which have ridiculously huge slotted and cross drilled brakes with very aggressive pads to deal with heat generation, etc. Not surprising at all that special brakes would be equipped for a track-training car, since it sees constant abuse.

Nissan has an absolutely great motorsports division...I just have a major issue with some of the shortcuts taken in the 370z production car...I mean, they actually put in a worse oil cooler than was standard in the 350z....on a car with essentially the same engine generating even more power.

[Maxim]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Responsiveness to the accelerator pedal, yes. But more power/weight doesn't make a car more agile. Consider that with a higher-powered rwd car you have to bias more roll stiffness to the front to get the power to the ground. Two equivalent rwd cars, same weight, weight distribution, etc, both optimized for track performance, the car with the inferior power/weight is going to feel and be more responsive-handling, particularly at less than 7-8/10ths.

And that's not even accounting for the fact that with less power, you can run smaller, lighter-weight tires, wheels, and brakes. Big reductions in unsprung mass. ($$$ too!)


More fun and engaging in the real world, on the street? Ditto what Fatoni said above (qualified "yes").

Better handling in terms of ultimate lateral acceleration? Not even close, the supercars will post better numbers for sure.

Already established, I *fully* understand the performance ramifications of power/weight. But there are reasons why my ~100mph-in-the-1/4 car feels lighter and more sprightly and "better-handling" on the street than my similar size/weight/weight-distribution 129+ car.

Yeah the extra hardware that has to be used to safely field a car with that kind of power weighs a LOT. Stronger driveshaft, larger brake rotors, larger calipers, stronger gears, a lot more cooling equipment...it all adds up very quickly.

One of the things that never really gets mentioned about the new Camaro is that it actually comes standard in SS form pretty much fully track ready (while the mustang does not, although it's quite resistant to fade). The brakes are very resistant to fade, it's got heavy duty transmission and oil coolers, the suspension is overbuilt to deal with way more G force than the stock tires can provide, and the radiator is freaking huge. Chevrolet played it safe and installed all the things you need to be track-ready. I'm told that the new FE4 suspension package on the 2012+ SS models is a massive improvement in understeer and steering feel too. All that stuff adds weight, which people bitch about, but damn if the car isn't easy to turn into a track star. Of course, it'll never FEEL like a sprightly little car, but it can perform extremely reliably and consistently on a track in stock form. For an extreme example, look at the new ZL1: it matches the Corvette Grand Sport on the 'ring, and it weighs nearly 4200lbs. And there's no brake fade or heat-soak. If Chevrolet had not mandated that all SS Camaros be track-ready, I fully expect that it would weigh more like 3700lbs in SS form.

It just seems to me that in the pursuit of holding weight-gain back on the 370z, Nissan took some shortcuts that had pretty dire consequences in terms of showroom-stock reliability under enthusiast conditions. That's what happens when you use a modular frame that's designed to work for sedans and SUVs for your sports car *shrug*

[7thgear]

370z is an awesome car

but it has no back seats

the FT86 truly fills a gap in the automotive world

[PACMAN]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

a brand new 370z in canada will set you back around 50K after all said and done.

I think overall the 370z is a much more capable car, but it's priced on another level (would definetly get it over a Porsche or something)

Killer car pricing up here, that's for sure!

[Mike]

Originally Posted by Maxim

*looks at ur profile*

You drive an S2000......

If that's not accurate and you are now in a 370z, there's WELL documented issues with the brakes, including with upgraded pads activating the "ice-mode" ABS. All the forums I've looked through harp on it and many members urge people looking to track the car to be very careful or to not track it until the required upgrades are done. Even with high performance pads and brake fluid people are still experiencing extreme amounts of fade, far far greater than should be experienced on a performance car.

*shrug* I can only go by what I read from the people who own them. I know I would track the thing and once I got enough time in the car to actually be fast with it, it would be a major issue.

The data from Car and Driver frankly frightens me...the tests they did showed how much higher the temperatures are than normal.....yeah, just not for me.

As for the engine oil issue, it would not surprise me at all if the VVEL was the cause. The VQ series of engines came out a lonnngggggg time ago, and if it wasn't designed around that system to begin with (I don't know if it was, not familiar enough with the engine family), adding it in the interest of more power could understandably cause issues.

The other issue is there's just no airflow, to the front brakes or the engine compartment. There's a reason cold-air intakes have such a big benefit on the 370z

Stop magazine racing and get some real seat time in the car

How much seat time do you have in a 370z/g37? I've logged quite a few, and can absolutely guarantee that the brakes are not an issue. Good fluid and pads are all you need unless you're building more than just a weekend warrior.

If anything, the S2000 has some serious brake problems, but none of the magazine harp about that.

You shouldn't be using ABS on track anyways; ABS is generally a crutch unless you're trail braking into a really badly paved turn.

Originally Posted by Maxim

That's standard practice though. Porsche driving schools have cars that are all equipped with the carbon ceramic brakes, schools that use corvettes use the Z06 or Grand Sport, which have ridiculously huge slotted and cross drilled brakes with very aggressive pads to deal with heat generation, etc. Not surprising at all that special brakes would be equipped for a track-training car, since it sees constant abuse.

Nissan has an absolutely great motorsports division...I just have a major issue with some of the shortcuts taken in the 370z production car...I mean, they actually put in a worse oil cooler than was standard in the 350z....on a car with essentially the same engine generating even more power.

Do you just regurgitate what you read or have you actually attended any sort of driving school?

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Mike

If anything, the S2000 has some serious brake problems, but none of the magazine harp about that.

Never any issues with mine at the track (NHMS, WGI, Mosport, Mont Tremblant, Lime Rock). I've gotten by with OEM AP1 pads in a pinch (not ideal). For a while I used CarboTech XP8s, but eventually found that I had zero issues with lower-temp Hawk HP+. Fresh off-the-shelf DOT4 has always worked well for me too.
Totally bone stock '01.

Of course different drivers can place very different demands on the brakes, even while turning similar lap times, so that's a huge variable right there...

[crazyyankeefan]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

the FT86 truly fills a gap in the automotive world

Interesting assessment, and I must say I kinda agree with that. At this point on the market, there's no car in the same class as FR-S/BRZ.

In general, the car is nice-looking, but it just seems to me the design was copied from here and there. And, I still want to go back to the lack of power w/ 2700+ lb.

[Mr.Jay]

Originally Posted by crazyyankeefan

In general, the car is nice-looking, but it just seems to me the design was copied from here and there. And, I still want to go back to the lack of power w/ 2700+ lb.

I would like to know what cars you feel it copies from unless you are going to say gt2000 or other other toyotas cause well that was how they designed it