Has the FT86 changed the sports car industry?

[Atropine]

I have owned a ton of sports cars...
I am listing them just to show I may know what I am talking about...

Nismo 350Z
STI
Boxster S
SRT8 Challenger
88 S/C MR2
89 N/A MR2

The best handling cars I have ever driven were my my AW-11 MR2s and my grandfathers NA (first gen) Miata.
Then my BRZ.

The Miata has been a GREAT sports car for so long.

I spent a ton of money chasing HP/Speed.

As I have gotten older, I have realized that FEEL is way more important to me.

When I bought my BRZ, it was between 4 cars...
2005 Mazdaspeed Miata (turbo)
Scion FR-S
Powered Hard top club edition Miata
Subaru BRZ

I never got around to driving the new Miata...when I drove my BRZ, I HAD TO HAVE IT.

But to say a Miata is bloated is BS.

The original AW-11 MR2 (came out in 1985/6) weighed 2100lbs.
The SW20 MR2 weighed 2700 pounds in 1991. Would you call the second gen MR2 a cow?

If you don't like the styling of a Miata, that is fine...that is all opinion based (and I suppose driver feel is opinion based as well....I hated my STI).

But please so some respect to the little car that could and still does. The Miata is a blast to drive hard it is the lightest affordable readily available sportscar in the US.

PS..if you don't believe me, go check out ANY local SCCA scores/times...you WILL find Miatas littered all through the leader boards...this is not accidental.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Atropine

I have owned a ton of sports cars...
I am listing them just to show I may know what I am talking about...

Nismo 350Z
STI
Boxster S
SRT8 Challenger
88 S/C MR2
89 N/A MR2

The best handling cars I have ever driven were my my AW-11 MR2s and my grandfathers NA (first gen) Miata.
Then my BRZ.

Really? You wouldn't rank the Boxster up with the Miata/BRZ? Which generation did you have? I haven't driven a 986, but I have driven a 987, and it's every bit as good as (or better than) a Miata or BRZ in my opinion, though I haven't driven an NA Miata.

[Atropine]

Originally Posted by chrisl

Really? You wouldn't rank the Boxster up with the Miata/BRZ? Which generation did you have? I haven't driven a 986, but I have driven a 987, and it's every bit as good as (or better than) a Miata or BRZ in my opinion, though I haven't driven an NA Miata.

Mine was a 2001...I absolutely loved it...the whole IMS failure thing freaked me out...so I never really got to enjoy it...

AKA, I bought the car...then read about IMS failure...then everytime something made a weird sound...I would have a nervous break down lol.

I still toy around with the idea of getting a Boxster/Cayman S down the road again (seems the newer ones have the IMS failure thing under control).

It is more of a price point thing for me.

I think the BRZ/FR-S are the best driving cars until you get to the Cayman or Elise.

Though, I have to admit...cars with a legit curb weight for 2100 lbs (AW-11 MR2 and NA Miata) are just freaking fun to toss around corners...but they are unsettled at highway speeds (70+)

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Atropine

Mine was a 2001...I absolutely loved it...the whole IMS failure thing freaked me out...so I never really got to enjoy it...

AKA, I bought the car...then read about IMS failure...then everytime something made a weird sound...I would have a nervous break down lol.

I still toy around with the idea of getting a Boxster/Cayman S down the road again (seems the newer ones have the IMS failure thing under control).

It is more of a price point thing for me.

I think the BRZ/FR-S are the best driving cars until you get to the Cayman or Elise.

Though, I have to admit...cars with a legit curb weight for 2100 lbs (AW-11 MR2 and NA Miata) are just freaking fun to toss around corners...but they are unsettled at highway speeds (70+)

Ahh - yes, the IMS thing would really put a damper on my ability to enjoy a 986 Boxster. Definitely a fun car from what I've heard, but the engine reliability isn't anywhere near as good as it should have been.

As for 2100lb cars? I'd love to try one sometime - the lightest I've driven was an NC Miata, which is still pretty light (<2500lb), but certainly significantly heavier than the NA or an older MR2. I originally wanted an Elise actually, when I was looking at sporty cars, but a combination of their impracticality and the fact that Elises are harder to find and more expensive than they were a couple years ago led me to the Cayman instead. I still wish I'd had a chance to drive one though.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I'm in his corner and I question anybodies sanity for not seeing how great the Miata is and how relevant it is to the 86. Talking about cars that are irrelevant to the mass market average new car buyer does not help your poin (MR2, KTM, Caterham etc.).

The 86 is not starting a trend, the Miata was rumoured to lose weight long before the 86 became a reality.

http://www.edmunds.com/mazda/mx-5-mi...oad-test1.html



And here's one for the Mustang:
http://www.themustangnews.com/conten.../#.UmYcJPmcc1N

Those articles date from 2010, the GT86 was announced in 2011.

Those cars aren't out ARE THEY! The 86 came before those with the expressed point of dropping weight off RWD coupes. Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

I also didn't say the Miata is a bad car. You're being too sensitive defending the thing when noone is attacking it.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by Atropine

The SW20 MR2 weighed 2700 pounds in 1991. Would you call the second gen MR2 a cow?

Yes, I say it all the time. The SW20 is a fat fucking cow. I also tell people it doesn;t deserve to uttered in the same breath as the AW11 or ZZW30. It's pretty though.

Where was I attacking the Miata's looks? Lol, you Miata guys see shadows and demons all over the place. Paranoid much?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Those cars aren't out ARE THEY! The 86 came before those with the expressed point of dropping weight off RWD coupes. Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

You're right those cars aren't out yet, they were in early development before the 86 'expressed (the) point of dropping weight off rwd coupes'.

The 86 is not a cause of the current industry trends but rather an effect of trends towards lighter weight better handling.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by chrisl

So let's see here. As far as stuff available in the US, excluding exotics, boutiques, and kit cars, that's basically the MR2 and the Elise. Seems like a pretty narrow definition of the words "sports car".

(Also, I feel any definition of "Sports car" that excludes the NSX, the Cayman, the BMW M Coupe/Roadster, and the Ferrari 360, to name a few cars that don't fit your criteria, is clearly wrong)

Seems you have quite a few things wrong there. The MR2 is not in production and the Elise can't be imported due to the costs associated w/ compliance w/ new regs. However, all the other cars I listed can be bought and driven here legally and none of those are 'kit' cars btw.

Well, I like my 'sports cars' more in the Sprint type classes. Small lightweight, nimble, responsive. The NSX and Cayman are more GT/Enduro class type cars which are more 'sporty type high speed cars' where top speed stability and capability are more important than physical agility. This is not too dissimilar to how the JGTC splits GT300/500 classes.

Sorry I just don't see the Miata or 86 as true sports cars. There is too much DD or other compromises built in to both that has little to do with being quicker or going fast. They are both too soft out of the gate. We all have our different criteria, so if being a DD road car that's faster than a Corolla is your definition of a sports car, that's fine for you. My old professor used to believe a car can't be a race car if it has doors. That's his view. We are all different, sorry to break the news.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

You're right those cars aren't out yet, they were in early development before the 86 'expressed (the) point of dropping weight off rwd coupes'.

The 86 is not a cause of the current industry trends but rather an effect of trends towards lighter weight better handling.

BS. Prove it. Links? I know you are dead wrong on this point so I hope you have evidence.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Seems you have quite a few things wrong there. The MR2 is not in production and the Elise can't be imported due to the costs associated w/ compliance w/ new regs. However, all the other cars I listed can be bought and driven here legally and none of those are 'kit' cars btw.

Oh, I wasn't limiting myself to current production. I believe my list (MR2, Elise) is pretty comprehensive for the past 20-30 years at least of cars that fit your criteria that aren't boutiques, exotics, or kit cars.

(I notice that you reduced my statement down to just "kit cars" - your listed cars may not be kit cars, but they sure as hell are boutiques)

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by chrisl

Oh, I wasn't limiting myself to current production. I believe my list (MR2, Elise) is pretty comprehensive for the past 20-30 years at least of cars that fit your criteria that aren't boutiques, exotics, or kit cars.

(I notice that you reduced my statement down to just "kit cars" - your listed cars may not be kit cars, but they sure as hell are boutiques)

Oh I gotcha. I wasn't limiting your list, I was just addressing that specific portion of your statement. They are boutique for sure. If we go into out of production cars, there are many under 24-2500lbs.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

BS. Prove it. Links? I know you are dead wrong on this point so I hope you have evidence.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

The 86 is not starting a trend, the Miata was rumoured to lose weight long before the 86 became a reality.
http://www.edmunds.com/mazda/mx-5-mi...oad-test1.html

And here's one for the Mustang:
http://www.themustangnews.com/conten.../#.UmYcJPmcc1N

Those articles date from 2010, the GT86 was announced in 2011.

Here's an article from 2009 about the first FT-86 concept, no mention of lightweight focus, only low C.G. and good handling:
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/toy...ept-auto-shows

Here's an article from 2011:
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/toy...i-concept-news

Again no mention of lightweight although it is compared to the 370Z in terms of overall dimensions and power (~200 horses). Early speculation was anywhere from 2500 lbs up to 3300 lbs, there were only rumors.

e.g.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2286
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1338

Real specifications were released later in 2011 when production models were shown in November:
http://www.carscoops.com/2011/11/new...ive-coupe.html

A full year after the articles I posted above and you chose not to read twice.

The 86 is NOT a driving trend for lighter cars, it is following the curve like everyone else. Based on the speculation I posted above from this forum in 2011 you could argue that the 86 was aiming for the 'bloated' NC Miata and missed it's target by many people's standards.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Here's an article from 2009 about the first FT-86 concept, no mention of lightweight focus, only low C.G. and good handling:
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/toy...ept-auto-shows

Here's an article from 2011:
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/toy...i-concept-news

Again no mention of lightweight although it is compared to the 370Z in terms of overall dimensions and power (~200 horses). Early speculation was anywhere from 2500 lbs up to 3300 lbs, there were only rumors.

Then again there's this from an article by Autoblog in 2009:

Toyota focused on keeping the weight down to improve handling and, according to one source, the platform is unique to the concept. The engine sits lower in the engine bay to aid aerodynamics while keeping the center of gravity in check, and the overall dimensions of Toyota's new 2+2 are 163.78 inches long and 69.29 inches wide, with a wheelbase of 101.18 inches.

And from Toyota's official press release in 2009:

1. FT-86 Concept (world premiere)
The FT-86 ("86" pronounced "hachi roku"), a compact rear-wheel-drive sports car, provides driving joy and excitement.

* Compact design gives driver greater control, while body's lightness and low center of gravity allow racecar-like handling
* Both power and environmental performance provided by 2-liter boxer engine and light body
* Flash Red body color contains hint of blue; interior expresses modern feel with minimal coverage of the highly refined structural components evoking enthusiasm for cruising

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/06/t...k-the-hachiro/

I don't really have a horse in this race either way. Just putting some facts out there.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

If we go into out of production cars, there are many under 24-2500lbs.

Sure, but none that I can think of that are mid engine aside from the MR2 and Elise. If we remove that restriction, there are definitely quite a few lightweight (<2500lb) front engine, rear drive sports cars though.