Has the FT86 changed the sports car industry?

[DougNuts]

In my opinion, the twins may have shown other manufacturers what a good looking car is. I like all cars, but I think the FRS is one of the best looking cars on the road. Getting into that kind of beauty at this price point is rediculous.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

1-All those cars are in fact sold here except Lotus. Do your homework.

2-The GT86. Your obviously too blind to appreciate that it was the only coupe in recent memory to be 400lbs under it's class competitors. This is the second time I'm saying this shit to you and won't be repeating myself again no matter how hard it is for you to comprehend.

1. thats simply not true. i guess you could import these cars but many of them need to use an obscure loophole and i dont really consider that a production car. i guess our definitions are a little different.

2. im not blind but saying that the frs is a commitment to weight reduction while the miata is fat is stupid. there is no way around it. the miatas commitment to light weight "horse and rider as one" has gone unprecedented and you have the nerve to sit here and act like im the one that is out of line.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by fatoni

2. im not blind but saying that the frs is a commitment to weight reduction while the miata is fat is stupid. there is no way around it. the miatas commitment to light weight "horse and rider as one" has gone unprecedented and you have the nerve to sit here and act like im the one that is out of line.

You ARE out of line because:

1-You are the only one comparing the Miata and FRS in absolute terms which I never did. It's your argument, you own it, I need not defend YOUR argument against yourself. This is not how logic works dude.

2-You are the one, once again, selectively editing the argument to only frame it around a Miata FRS debate for your own self-serving reasons to derail a thread.

Btw, it's called Jinba ittai. I guess that includes excessive body roll as well. Tbh, compared to a lightweight MR, the Miata is more Rider and Pony as one, rather than Horse.

So continue to disregard any posts to try to help you understand what is actually going on here. We are all here to amuse you FaToni. That is the purpose of this entire forum.

I also find it amusing how in another thread you remarked smartly about how people on forums talk so much shit about cars they don't own. When are you getting your 86 FaToni??? By now, I'd have assumed you had at least 4 of them based on your criteria.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

You are out of line because:

1-You are the only one comparing the Miata and FRS which I never did.

2-You are the one, once again, selectively editing the argument to only frame it around a Miata FRS debate for your own self-serving reasons to derail a thread.

Btw, it's called Jinba ittai. I guess that includes excessive body roll as well.

So continue to disregard any posts to try to help you understand what is actually going on here. We are all here to amuse you FaToni. That is the purpose of this entire forum.

I also find it amusing how in another thread you remarked smartly about how people on forums talk so much shit about cars they don't own. When are you getting your 86 FaToni??? By now, I'd have assumed you had at least 4 of them based on your criteria.

im not the only one comparing the two cars. you are, however, the one calling the miata fat at 24xx lbs and calling the frs a commitment to light weight at 27xx lbs which is stupid.

want to talk about selective? how about that time when you decided to talk aobut how the 25xx lb cooper (which isnt correct by the way) is lighter than a 24xx lb miata? lets select that. or how about we selectively talk about that car you failed to mention that has gained less than 350lbs over 24 years?

im not derailing a thread. the frs doesnt do anything really that hasnt been done before in recent history. i guess you could get super specific but then every car is revolutionary.

the body roll in the miata is there on purpose and a 50 dollar fix if thats not your thing

i own a brz. i also own a miata. i assure you that im one of the more qualified people to talk about the two. excuse me for not putting my ownership on blast until this instant. i dont feel the need to update my status on a forum as its not really a big issue for normal people.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by fatoni

im not the only one comparing the two cars. you are, however, the one calling the miata fat at 24xx lbs and calling the frs a commitment to light weight at 27xx lbs which is stupid.

want to talk about selective? how about that time when you decided to talk aobut how the 25xx lb cooper (which isnt correct by the way) is lighter than a 24xx lb miata? lets select that. or how about we selectively talk about that car you failed to mention that has gained less than 350lbs over 24 years?

im not derailing a thread. the frs doesnt do anything really that hasnt been done before in recent history. i guess you could get super specific but then every car is revolutionary.

the body roll in the miata is there on purpose and a 50 dollar fix if thats not your thing

i own a brz. i also own a miata. i assure you that im one of the more qualified people to talk about the two. excuse me for not putting my ownership on blast until this instant. i dont feel the need to update my status on a forum as its not really a big issue for normal people.

Reread the posts before yours. If you open your eyes, the world might become more clear to you.

Let me know if you want further clarification after you give that a go. I'm here to help you out man anyway I can.

Btw, is it 23 or 24 years? I'm confused now. Be careful, ZDan might come in here and go off for 4 pages on your selective and inaccurate facts.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Reread the posts before yours. If you open your eyes, the world might become more clear to you.

Let me know if you want further clarification after you give that a go. I'm here to help you out man anyway I can.

Btw, is it 23 or 24 years? I'm confused now. Be careful, ZDan might come in here and go off for 4 pages on your selective and inaccurate facts.

you see, this right here is that deflection that is making you seem like a fool on these forums. you made a claim. it should be simple to support it but instead you try to spew this elitist banter. i need more clarification. its why i asked for it. now, please, show me how the 25xx lb cooper is lighter than a 24xx lb miata or how youre not being selective.

just address the points that i have made. you fail to do that and it makes you look foolish.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by fatoni

you see, this right here is that deflection that is making you seem like a fool on these forums. you made a claim. it should be simple to support it but instead you try to spew this elitist banter. i need more clarification. its why i asked for it. now, please, show me how the 25xx lb cooper is lighter than a 24xx lb miata or how youre not being selective.

just address the points that i have made. you fail to do that and it makes you look foolish.

Not so much deflection but to demonstrate for all to see whether your reading comprehension really is THAT bad. It obviously is. So let's all see who the fool is below.

Here is my original claim:
"My problem w/ the Miata being a sort of current standard bearer for lightweight RWD is that is has also grown fat and heavy over the years just the same as all the others out there. Even Mazda knows it was going in the wrong direction since it's been working on a 2,200lb Miata."
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=55

Here is your revised pseudo-claim (that YOU made, not me), misconstruing my comments and re framing a different debate for whatever psychotic reason you have:
"you cant honestly be criticizing 2447lbs on a forum for a car weighing in at 2758"
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...t=49448&page=3

So if it pleases your fancy, yes, yes I can because they aren't actually related in class, and the GT86 indicates the start of a negative vector for industry wide weight gain, and not only amongst class competitors. The current Miata continues the industry standard positive vector for weight gain in both its class and most newer cars as a whole. Your own data that you can't even get right using 'xx' demonstrates this trend clearly.

I said in the same post, to reply to your obvious usual befuddlement:
"To answer your implied question. Yes I think the GT86 is too fat by 200 lbs for my tastes. However, it is a GT coupe, not a roadster/convert and it also comes in at more than 400lbs lighter than all it's class competitors which bucks the weight gain trend."

The Miata does not buck the trend in any generation until the new one comes in 2015, presumably. It was also generally heavier than the MR-S and Lotus Elise when those were being produced as class competitors and peers. Only better than the S2000 in class around the same time (unless you include Solstice and Sky).

So in other words, the only work Mazda did, based on your definition of making the 'lightest production car' in the world, was to sit there and let Toyota and Lotus stop making competitors. Very impressive engineering feat you want to attribute to Mazda that they were able to get two different brands to shut down production on their comparable models.

I also gave further context here:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=69
"No, you misunderstood.

1-I said the Miata has become fat and bloated compared to what it was. Read the context carefully. That is VERY different from saying the Miata is a bloated piece of shit in an absolute sense. Sports cars for me are usually in the 2000-2200lb range and I prefer the engine not be in front personally. Which is why I haven't bought a new 'sports car' in years and I don't really qualify the GT86 as a true 'sports car'either. It's a fun to drive GT coupe that can be thrashed if you please."

It also can haul 4 sets of race wheels and slicks and race gear the Miata can't. Which is why you don't compare apples and oranges, let alone go off topic. In fact, the packaging exercise done w/ the 86 is a feat in itself if you compare the relative footprint of each car. I won't even get into the more generous use of high-tensile steel to give the 86 a chassis rigidity the Miata could only dream of. So, apples and oranges.

Here again, I discuss the 86 bucking the industry trend to restore thread topicality:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=70
"2-The GT86. Your obviously too blind to appreciate that it was the only coupe in recent memory to be 400lbs under it's class competitors. This is the second time I'm saying this shit to you and won't be repeating myself again no matter how hard it is for you to comprehend"
So much for the last part. The point is the thread is about industry trends and whether the 86 has had an effect. The thread is not called FaToni's obsessive compulsion to threadjack and make it a direct Miata FRS comparison thread.
The Mini is a hardtop coupe. The point was to show that if you turn the Miata into a comparable vehicle (hardtop/coupe), it becomes heavier than a Mini Cooper. So yes, 2535 (Mini) is lighter than 2593 (Miata). Both figures from the actual respective factory websites.

So yes, you are the master of fools in my book which is why I can't stand you ever quoting me. Nothing useful IME ever comes out whatever rat's nest you've got between your ears. Of course, it is even more foolish for me to engage your absurdities once again but you made today such a special day. So congratulations on wasting my time holding your hand through reading comprehension 101. Again.

Lol @ your use of xx to avoid precision and accuracy.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Not so much deflection but to demonstrate for all to see whether your reading comprehension really is THAT bad. It obviously is. So let's all see who the fool is below.

Here is my original claim:
"My problem w/ the Miata being a sort of current standard bearer for lightweight RWD is that is has also grown fat and heavy over the years just the same as all the others out there. Even Mazda knows it was going in the wrong direction since it's been working on a 2,200lb Miata."
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=55

Here is your revised pseudo-claim (that YOU made, not me), misconstruing my comments and re framing a different debate for whatever psychotic reason you have:
"you cant honestly be criticizing 2447lbs on a forum for a car weighing in at 2758"
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...t=49448&page=3

So if it pleases your fancy, yes, yes I can because they aren't actually related in class, and the GT86 indicates the start of a negative vector for industry wide weight gain, and not only amongst class competitors. The current Miata continues the industry standard positive vector for weight gain in both its class and most newer cars as a whole. Your own data that you can't even get right using 'xx' demonstrates this trend clearly.

I said in the same post, to reply to your obvious usual befuddlement:
"To answer your implied question. Yes I think the GT86 is too fat by 200 lbs for my tastes. However, it is a GT coupe, not a roadster/convert and it also comes in at more than 400lbs lighter than all it's class competitors which bucks the weight gain trend."

The Miata does not buck the trend in any generation until the new one comes in 2015, presumably. It was also generally heavier than the MR-S and Lotus Elise when those were being produced as class competitors and peers. Only better than the S2000 in class around the same time (unless you include Solstice and Sky).

So in other words, the only work Mazda did, based on your definition of making the 'lightest production car' in the world, was to sit there and let Toyota and Lotus stop making competitors. Very impressive engineering feat you want to attribute to Mazda that they were able to get two different brands to shut down production on their comparable models.

I also gave further context here:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=69
"No, you misunderstood.

1-I said the Miata has become fat and bloated compared to what it was. Read the context carefully. That is VERY different from saying the Miata is a bloated piece of shit in an absolute sense. Sports cars for me are usually in the 2000-2200lb range and I prefer the engine not be in front personally. Which is why I haven't bought a new 'sports car' in years and I don't really qualify the GT86 as a true 'sports car'either. It's a fun to drive GT coupe that can be thrashed if you please."

It also can haul 4 sets of race wheels and slicks and race gear the Miata can't. Which is why you don't compare apples and oranges, let alone go off topic. In fact, the packaging exercise done w/ the 86 is a feat in itself if you compare the relative footprint of each car. I won't even get into the more generous use of high-tensile steel to give the 86 a chassis rigidity the Miata could only dream of. So, apples and oranges.

Here again, I discuss the 86 bucking the industry trend to restore thread topicality:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=70
"2-The GT86. Your obviously too blind to appreciate that it was the only coupe in recent memory to be 400lbs under it's class competitors. This is the second time I'm saying this shit to you and won't be repeating myself again no matter how hard it is for you to comprehend"
So much for the last part. The point is the thread is about industry trends and whether the 86 has had an effect. The thread is not called FaToni's obsessive compulsion to threadjack and make it a direct Miata FRS comparison thread.
The Mini is a hardtop coupe. The point was to show that if you turn the Miata into a comparable vehicle (hardtop/coupe), it becomes heavier than a Mini Cooper. So yes, 2535 (Mini) is lighter than 2593 (Miata). Both figures from the actual respective factory websites.

So yes, you are the master of fools in my book which is why I can't stand you ever quoting me. Nothing useful IME ever comes out whatever rat's nest you've got between your ears. Of course, it is even more foolish for me to engage your absurdities once again but you made today such a special day. So congratulations on wasting my time holding your hand through reading comprehension 101. Again.

Lol @ your use of xx to avoid precision and accuracy.

im not going to sit here and pick apart that dissertation on nothing. there are so many stupid things you are saying here. i think the most important point here is that i have never seen a car only gain 350lbs in either 23 or 24 years. you say that its too much so i would love to hear of a car that gained less in that period.

[killerkid08]

Add turbo/super? Weight arguments are pointless when you are talking a few hundred pounds, while adding a good 100+ WHP. Modified versions of both these cars you keep arguing over would slam their factory versions like they were nothing.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i think the most important point here is that i have never seen a car only gain 350lbs in either 23 or 24 years. you say that its too much so i would love to hear of a car that gained less in that period.

Lol, of course you asked for it and now won't engage it because you can't. All you have is an argument you are the sole champion of where noone really gives a flying fuck.

I never disagreed or agreed w/ that claim. Of course first, I'd have to find another chick car that's been continuously produced over the past 24 years, so that's no small feat. I won't bother because I find nothing interesting or laudable about Mazda adding 350lbs to their car. That's your irrelevant claim which is completely off-topic here. So you can debate it with yourself. IF adding an NFL offensive lineman to your original Miata improves it's responsiveness and handling, more power to ya psycho.

Topic is that the GT86 did in fact set a recent industry trend to lose significant weight. A trend Mazda will follow with the next Miata despite your blind infatuation with your current fat car. My MR weighs well under 2200lbs so you can take your porker 2500lb Miata and cram it. Find a place for your driveshaft too while your at it.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by killerkid08

Add turbo/super? Weight arguments are pointless when you are talking a few hundred pounds, while adding a good 100+ WHP. Modified versions of both these cars you keep arguing over would slam their factory versions like they were nothing.

You don't know what you are talking about. Power is not a replacement for weight, it's a bandaid and only a simple, one dimensional linear fix at that. A couple hundred pounds is absolutely noticeable pretty much always unless you are a truck at 4000lbs.

If you can't feel the difference in a sports car with just the spare removed, I feel for you.


Unbelievable....

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Topic is that the GT86 did in fact set a recent industry trend to lose significant weight. A trend Mazda will follow with the next Miata despite your blind infatuation with your current fat car.

I'm in his corner and I question anybodies sanity for not seeing how great the Miata is and how relevant it is to the 86. Talking about cars that are irrelevant to the mass market average new car buyer does not help your poin (MR2, KTM, Caterham etc.).

The 86 is not starting a trend, the Miata was rumoured to lose weight long before the 86 became a reality.

http://www.edmunds.com/mazda/mx-5-mi...oad-test1.html

Whenever you speak with Kijima, you cannot complete more than a few sentences without him mentioning "lightweight sports." But as we inquired whether this philosophy of minimalism can survive the modern era, he replied, "Don't be surprised if the next-generation MX-5 is even smaller and lighter than this one. The market demands it and so do we."

And here's one for the Mustang:
http://www.themustangnews.com/conten.../#.UmYcJPmcc1N

Those articles date from 2010, the GT86 was announced in 2011.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Sports cars for me are usually in the 2000-2200lb range and I prefer the engine not be in front personally.

So let's see here. As far as stuff available in the US, excluding exotics, boutiques, and kit cars, that's basically the MR2 and the Elise. Seems like a pretty narrow definition of the words "sports car".

(Also, I feel any definition of "Sports car" that excludes the NSX, the Cayman, the BMW M Coupe/Roadster, and the Ferrari 360, to name a few cars that don't fit your criteria, is clearly wrong)

[Wolfking]

Originally Posted by ZionsWrath

I hope it does. I hope people like Ford are head banging wondering why people are buying this car instead of spending a bit more for a GT. And I hope that leads them in the right direction with the mustang.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who realizes this! The 69-70 style Mustangs are great, but they are also beefy designs. I've secretly willed Ford into building a neo 66-68 fastback car. In theory, it should be a smaller and lighter car.

As for the Z, one of the mains reasons I'm not driving one now, is due to it's poor fuel economy. I'm excited to see the auto industry's "catch up" reaction to the FRS / BRZ!