Has the FT86 changed the sports car industry?

[Rayme]

Originally Posted by fatoni

posts like this just make me imagine that this forum is full of a bunch of sixteen year olds. the miata has always been around and pretty much any thing the frs has already done and has been doing it pretty consistently for the last 20 something years. was the rx8 or s2000 really that long ago?

The FR-S is quite cheaper than the RX-8 and S2K and 350z (ever cheaper if you want to consider inflation from the time they were launched). The 86's fun/dollar is quite hard to beat, and it has a LSD standard, which a lot of the other cars out there offer only with a higher $ trim level. Here for under 30 000$ the 86 is the only sports cars available, the MX-5 is a hair under 30K (and it's only a 5spd with open diff, the 6spd with LSD is a higher trim).

In Canada, it definitely has changed the sports car market, by being cheap.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Rayme

The FR-S is quite cheaper than the RX-8 and S2K and 350z (ever cheaper if you want to consider inflation from the time they were launched). The 86's fun/dollar is quite hard to beat, and it has a LSD standard, which a lot of the other cars out there offer only with a higher $ trim level. Here for under 30 000$ the 86 is the only sports cars available, the MX-5 is a hair under 30K (and it's only a 5spd with open diff, the 6spd with LSD is a higher trim).

In Canada, it definitely has changed the sports car market, by being cheap.

i get frustrated when people bring up inflation but canada sounds horrible. im glad you guys finally have a cheap option up there.

[DAEMANO]

As compelling, enlightening, and frustrating as some of the conversation here has been, the premise of this thread is "Has the FT86 changed the sports car industry?", not "Is the FT86 revolutionary", or "Are other car manufacturer's reacting to the FT86".

Without a doubt the FT86 has changed the "sports car industry" by changing the collective mindset. The FT86 has shined a light on one simple fact. People want sports cars, real sports cars, but with just enough utility that they don't need a second car. Consumers want to end up with "A Real Sports Car You Can Use Every Day (TM)". These cars should be lightweight, responsive, driver focused, but most importantly have the utility of a small back seat, security of a fixed roof, and fuel economy of compact. However to crack open this market it car would have to remain a real sports car.

Previously, auto execs thought that when people said "sports car" they really meant "GT" or even "hot hatch". So they'd take an established platform, add power, tires, and stripes, call it a sports car and that was the end of it. Who cared about weight when you could just add more power? Indeed for some, this formula works, but it still left a glaring hole in the market that no manufacturer had seriously attempted to fill. The execs thought they had captured all of the market with "sporty cars". So what about the Miata? Auto execs thought that since the Miata & S2K sell/sold in low volumes, even if they were critical successes, they'd be remain low selling niche vehicles or at best "halo cars".

Toyota & Subaru showed that this is not a dead market. If consumers are buying $25-$30k genuine sports cars that can be daily driven, the auto industry will build them now & into the future, no matter the technologies. So we will see hybrid sports cars light enough to be tossable (ater all the Prius C has a curb weight of 2500lbs), with communicative control systems, and a fixed roof. Toyota & Subaru showed the auto industry that the gap in the market was worth exploiting and what it takes to develop & sell a real sports car you can use every day in large enough volumes to make them viable. This hopefully will be the road map other manufacturers use to bring even more sports cars back to the market.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by fatoni

the miata has gone from 2116 to 2447 in 23 years and your calling that growing fat? you cant honestly be criticizing 2447lbs on a forum for a car weighing in at 2758. i think the miata is currently the lightest production sports car and i would love for you to mention a single sports car that is either lighter or has gained less weight in that amount of time.

Once again you are full of shit, as usual. Yes adding 350lbs and tipping scales at 2500 is called getting fat for a Miata. But than you for the opportunity to publicly correct you again as it apparently is my second job or something.

Curbweight per MazdaUSA: http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/disp...ehicleCode=MX5


2480-2511 (MT/softop), 2593 (MT/hardtop); 52/48 F/R (FRS = 53/47)


Lighter production currently produced 'sports' cars:




Lotus Elise
Lotus Exige
Alfa 4C

BAC Mono
Ariel Atom
Caterham

KTM XBow
Minicooper hardtop (2535lbs)


Include out of production cars and the list is huge.


Points:
1-There are many cars in production and out of production that way less than the Miata.
2-The fact that a Miata now weighs as much as a MiniCooper tells you Mazda kept up the trend of adding weight no different from anyone else.
3-Mazda changing direction now to shave off 300lbs tells us they knew the Miata had gotten too fat. Except in Fatoni's alternate universe where Mazda leads the wayand revolutionized lightweight sports cars unlike Lotus and all the original British roadsters the Miata was based upon decades later. Fatoni simply lives in a fantasy universe apart from Mazda and the rest of us.
4-Fatoni wants to construct a false debate or comparison between a Miata and GT86 simply because he's a forum troll and wants to distract us from the original argument presented by the OP and the rest of the contributors. This is called a red herring and is used to deflect by someone losing an argument.


To answer your implied question. Yes I think the GT86 is too fat by 200 lbs for my tastes. However, it is a GT coupe, not a roadster/convert and it also comes in at more than 400lbs lighter than all it's class competitors which bucks the weight gain trend.


A trend which Mazda acknowledges, has participated in knowingly, and has yet to rectify till 2015 as far as can be seen. Toyobaru is the only major manufacturer who recently has clearly made a commitment to go the other direction and actually released a tangible product for sale that bucks the overweight trend. Even the new Corvette gained weight.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Once again you are full of shit, as usual.

I like how you're trying to construe the Miata as a bloated pig when it is (per your post) the lightest mass produced sports car.

http://autos.yahoo.com/mini/cooper-h...fications.html

2678 lbs for a Mini Cooper JCW (MT)
2668 lbs for a Mini Cooper base (MT)

You're right, if you extend to kit cars, low volume boutique cars and >$50k exotics there are lighter options.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Once again you are full of shit, as usual. Yes adding 350lbs and tipping scales at 2500 is called getting fat for a Miata. But than you for the opportunity to publicly correct you again as it apparently is my second job or something.

Curbweight per MazdaUSA: http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/disp...ehicleCode=MX5


2480-2511 (MT/softop), 2593 (MT/hardtop); 52/48 F/R (FRS = 53/47)


Lighter production currently produced 'sports' cars:




Lotus Elise
Lotus Exige
Alfa 4C

BAC Mono
Ariel Atom
Caterham

KTM XBow
Minicooper hardtop (2535lbs)


Include out of production cars and the list is huge.


Points:
1-There are many cars in production and out of production that way less than the Miata.
2-The fact that a Miata now weighs as much as a MiniCooper tells you Mazda kept up the trend of adding weight no different from anyone else.
3-Mazda changing direction now to shave off 300lbs tells us they knew the Miata had gotten too fat. Except in Fatoni's alternate universe where Mazda leads the wayand revolutionized lightweight sports cars unlike Lotus and all the original British roadsters the Miata was based upon decades later. Fatoni simply lives in a fantasy universe apart from Mazda and the rest of us.
4-Fatoni wants to construct a false debate or comparison between a Miata and GT86 simply because he's a forum troll and wants to distract us from the original argument presented by the OP and the rest of the contributors. This is called a red herring and is used to deflect by someone losing an argument.


To answer your implied question. Yes I think the GT86 is too fat by 200 lbs for my tastes. However, it is a GT coupe, not a roadster/convert and it also comes in at more than 400lbs lighter than all it's class competitors which bucks the weight gain trend.


A trend which Mazda acknowledges, has participated in knowingly, and has yet to rectify till 2015 as far as can be seen. Toyobaru is the only major manufacturer who recently has clearly made a commitment to go the other direction and actually released a tangible product for sale that bucks the overweight trend. Even the new Corvette gained weight.

that 350lbs is over 24 years of production. like i said, if you can name a single car that has even come close to only gaining that much i would love to hear it.

for someone who brought up all the safety regulations in the us, i was hoping you would mention at least one production car that was sold here. also, 2480 is lighter than 2535.

what product did toyota put out that showed a commitment to losing weight?

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Once again you are full of shit, as usual. Yes adding 350lbs and tipping scales at 2500 is called getting fat for a Miata. But than you for the opportunity to publicly correct you again as it apparently is my second job or something.

Curbweight per MazdaUSA: http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/disp...ehicleCode=MX5


2480-2511 (MT/softop), 2593 (MT/hardtop); 52/48 F/R (FRS = 53/47)


Lighter production currently produced 'sports' cars:




Lotus Elise
Lotus Exige
Alfa 4C

BAC Mono
Ariel Atom
Caterham

KTM XBow
Minicooper hardtop (2535lbs)


Include out of production cars and the list is huge.


Points:
1-There are many cars in production and out of production that way less than the Miata.
2-The fact that a Miata now weighs as much as a MiniCooper tells you Mazda kept up the trend of adding weight no different from anyone else.
3-Mazda changing direction now to shave off 300lbs tells us they knew the Miata had gotten too fat. Except in Fatoni's alternate universe where Mazda leads the wayand revolutionized lightweight sports cars unlike Lotus and all the original British roadsters the Miata was based upon decades later. Fatoni simply lives in a fantasy universe apart from Mazda and the rest of us.
4-Fatoni wants to construct a false debate or comparison between a Miata and GT86 simply because he's a forum troll and wants to distract us from the original argument presented by the OP and the rest of the contributors. This is called a red herring and is used to deflect by someone losing an argument.


To answer your implied question. Yes I think the GT86 is too fat by 200 lbs for my tastes. However, it is a GT coupe, not a roadster/convert and it also comes in at more than 400lbs lighter than all it's class competitors which bucks the weight gain trend.


A trend which Mazda acknowledges, has participated in knowingly, and has yet to rectify till 2015 as far as can be seen. Toyobaru is the only major manufacturer who recently has clearly made a commitment to go the other direction and actually released a tangible product for sale that bucks the overweight trend. Even the new Corvette gained weight.

Let's investigate your list here:

Lotus Elise: Current model not available in US
Lotus Exige: See above
Alfa 4C: Not yet available in US, will be available in very limited numbers (at a high price) when it gets here

BAC Mono: Not available (or legal) in the US
Ariel Atom: This thing barely counts as a car - it's questionable whether it is legal in the US, and you really need a motorcycle helmet to drive it.
Caterham: Not readily available in the US
KTM XBow: Not readily available in the US
Minicooper hardtop (2535lbs): Heavier than the Miata, front wheel drive

In other words, not a single member of your list above is a viable Miata competitor. They're either vastly more expensive and limited, not available (or legal) in the US, or in a completely different category of car.

[jblmr2]

While I have enjoyed this thread, I think we are all behind the curve. When you consider that new model development is a 5 to 7 year process, and that manufacturers are inherently conservative, our 86's are at minimum 5 years behind current design and engineering thinking. The cool thing about that is that we will see better and better iterations of the cars we love to drive....if we continue to buy them!

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by dem00n

Or as a friend once told me, when i see a spanish guy driving an S2000 i'll let you know.

Your friend has a problem with people form Spain?!

[TeamZleep]

Originally Posted by jblmr2

That car was the 240Z. In fact it's almost scary how similar those times are to now automotively speaking.

Funny you posted this. I'm a born/raised S30Z guy, and the sole reason I bought the 86 over the 370Z is 100% in fact, without a doubt, the way the cars drove.

I cannot explain in enough depth how similar it is to drive the 86 compared to an S30Z. It makes me so happy.

[Ocala FR-S]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dem00n

Or as a friend once told me, when i see a spanish guy driving an S2000 i'll let you know.

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Your friend has a problem with people from Spain?!

Ha Ha, let's hope no Spanish people move into the neighborhood. They'll be flamenco dancing and bull fighting all night. God forbid it turns out to be Fernando Alonzo!

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I like how you're trying to construe the Miata as a bloated pig when it is (per your post) the lightest mass produced sports car.

http://autos.yahoo.com/mini/cooper-h...fications.html

2678 lbs for a Mini Cooper JCW (MT)
2668 lbs for a Mini Cooper base (MT)

You're right, if you extend to kit cars, low volume boutique cars and >$50k exotics there are lighter options.

No, you misunderstood.

1-I said the Miata has become fat and bloated compared to what it was. Read the context carefully. That is VERY different from saying the Miata is a bloated piece of shit in an absolute sense. Sports cars for me are usually in the 2000-2200lb range and I prefer the engine not be in front personally. Which is why I haven't bought a new 'sports car' in years and I don't really qualify the GT86 as a true 'sports car'either. It's a fun to drive GT coupe that can be thrashed if you please.

2-Go check the curbweights on Mini's site. I don't know why you want to frame the Mini around a JCW w/ the added mass of a blower or whatever FOTM they are using these days over there.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by fatoni

that 350lbs is over 24 years of production. like i said, if you can name a single car that has even come close to only gaining that much i would love to hear it.

for someone who brought up all the safety regulations in the us, i was hoping you would mention at least one production car that was sold here. also, 2480 is lighter than 2535.

what product did toyota put out that showed a commitment to losing weight?

1-All those cars are in fact sold here except Lotus. Do your homework.

2-The GT86. Your obviously too blind to appreciate that it was the only coupe in recent memory to be 400lbs under it's class competitors. This is the second time I'm saying this shit to you and won't be repeating myself again no matter how hard it is for you to comprehend.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by chrisl

Let's investigate your list here:

BAC Mono: Not available (or legal) in the US
Ariel Atom: This thing barely counts as a car - it's questionable whether it is legal in the US, and you really need a motorcycle helmet to drive it.
Caterham: Not readily available in the US
KTM XBow: Not readily available in the US
Minicooper hardtop (2535lbs): Heavier than the Miata, front wheel drive

In other words, not a single member of your list above is a viable Miata competitor. They're either vastly more expensive and limited, not available (or legal) in the US, or in a completely different category of car.

Wrong, all those are available legally for the street. Even in California. Not heavier than the posted weight of the Miata hardtop which is what the cooper is. That's more apples for apples.

Regardless. What is currently available means little shit to me as I still think the Miata is 300lbs heavier than it should be. And guess what.

MAZDA AGREES WITH ME, not FaToni.