Report: Toyota 86 / FR-S Sedan still coming (with 100mm longer wheelbase)

[aCab]

Originally Posted by OrangeJuleas

Those are all luxury sedans, not sport sedans. Infiniti is Nissan's high-end division. Cadillac is GM's high-end division. Lexus is Toyota's high-end division, and you have said right here that they already have a RWD "sporty" sedan. Do you think they want to compete with themselves?

MSRP of an IS250 is right around $35K if I'm not mistaken. Toyota doesn't need two of the same vehicle.

And another thing @aCab, we are not arguing, this is a debate. If you don't like debate, then why did you join a forum? Please don't be condescending to people who are just sharing their viewpoints. I am not saying I'm right and that there is no room for a car in this segment. We are all speculating by the very nature of this conversation. I was just putting forth my opinion that Toyota should venture in another direction, rather than the sedan.

So how does that have ANYTHING to do with porsche? You are the one that said nobody makes one but Porsche.

I joined a forum for discussion and information. Sad that everyone expects "debate" and arguing on forums now. The "Don't like debate, don't join a forum" mentality is what's wrong with the automotive community these days. This forum is going in the direction of Honda-Tech, and at a quick rate so it seems,

I'm not against discussion, but being able to see both sides is important in a true discussion. I'm not saying anyone is wrong, just that we seem to be going in endless circles with this "debate".

[OrangeJuleas]

Originally Posted by DougNuts

FWD is cheaper and more efficient, that's why most RWD cars are in categories that can command more money.

I agree with aCab, if someone thinks Toyota is going to ruin something by not sharing this chassis with other body styles, they are probably young, nieve and not a true car enthusiast.

That is a false statement. One doesn't need to agree with everything that a company does to be an enthusiast. We are all enthusiasts by virtue of the fact that we are here discussing it. I don't need to see The Homer to know that it shouldn't have been created. We are here to talk about the past, present and future of the things we love, and you should not call someone who doesn't see an FT86 Sedan in Toyota's future "naive, young and not an enthusiast".

We do have a term for people who think a company can do no wrong, no matter what they release: fanboi.

[aCab]

Originally Posted by OrangeJuleas

That is a false statement. One doesn't need to agree with everything that a company does to be an enthusiast. We are all enthusiasts by virtue of the fact that we are here discussing it. I don't need to see The Homer to know that it shouldn't have been created. We are here to talk about the past, present and future of the things we love, and you should not call someone who doesn't see an FT86 Sedan in Toyota's future "naive, young and not an enthusiast".

We do have a term for people who think a company can do no wrong, no matter what they release: fanboi.

Actually, a true "driving" enthusiast could care less about badges. We need to be clear that there is a difference between car enthusiast and driving enthusiast.

The problem with the twins is that they attract both...and each type has their own viewpoint.

For me, I welcome more fun to drive cars, even if I never plan on buying one. What's so wrong with an frs based sedan? I've seen a lot of opinion, but very little fact.

[OrangeJuleas]

Originally Posted by aCab

So how does that have ANYTHING to do with porsche? You are the one that said nobody makes one but Porsche.

I joined a forum for discussion and information. Sad that everyone expects "debate" and arguing on forums now. The "Don't like debate, don't join a forum" mentality is what's wrong with the automotive community these days. This forum is going in the direction of Honda-Tech, and at a quick rate so it seems,

I'm not against discussion, but being able to see both sides is important in a true discussion. I'm not saying anyone is wrong, just that we seem to be going in endless circles with this "debate".

I don't know what you mean by the Porsche comment. I did absolutely say they were the only ones to make a true sport sedan (and even that can be argued), and you offered a few luxury sedans as a suggestion (that while sporty, was more of an afterthought).

This debate is, by its very nature, circular. Nothing has been confirmed as of yet. So expect people looking for debate. If you want information, there are threads on things that are released where you don't find people who need to speculate. Being able to see both sides is great, but that doesn't mean you need to be so open-minded that you don't have an opinion.

Also, embrace the community, because nothing lasts forever.

[OrangeJuleas]

Originally Posted by aCab

Actually, a true "driving" enthusiast could care less about badges. We need to be clear that there is a difference between car enthusiast and driving enthusiast.

The problem with the twins is that they attract both...and each type has their own viewpoint.

For me, I welcome more fun to drive cars, even if I never plan on buying one. What's so wrong with an frs based sedan? I've seen a lot of opinion, but very little fact.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this sentiment. There is nothing wrong with an FRS sedan. In fact, the think the rendering/prototype hatchback in red shown before is pretty damn sexy, something I would drive myself. I just think this is the wrong direction for Toyota to take. Stick to the platform, keep its strengths and work with them, not against them.

Innovation is sublime, but simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.

[aCab]

Originally Posted by OrangeJuleas

I don't know what you mean by the Porsche comment. I did absolutely say they were the only ones to make a true sport sedan (and even that can be argued), and you offered a few luxury sedans as a suggestion (that while sporty, was more of an afterthought).

This debate is, by its very nature, circular. Nothing has been confirmed as of yet. So expect people looking for debate. If you want information, there are threads on things that are released where you don't find people who need to speculate. Being able to see both sides is great, but that doesn't mean you need to be so open-minded that you don't have an opinion.

Also, embrace the community, because nothing lasts forever.

Infinity/Lexus are luxury brands, true....I'm the states. Overseas, RWD sport sedans are available and sell quite well, without bells and whistles, even is they have a higher cost due to their RWD configuration.

The only reason they are sold as luxury cars in the states is due to their higher cost of production. The only way Americans can justify spending more is to convince themselves they are getting a luxury car with sporty underpinnings. It's a unique market this one.

If toyota attempts to buck this trend and succeed, I think the future will show many more non-luxury RWD sedans.

If toyota listened to the logic of "well nobody else makes one right now, that must be for a reason", we'd never have the fr-s/brz now would we?

[OrangeJuleas]

Originally Posted by aCab

If toyota listened to the logic of "well nobody else makes one right now, that must be for a reason", we'd never have the fr-s/brz now would we?

Not necessarily:

"We did know from the very beginning that it was going to be a sports car. I said, well, if it’s going to be a sports car, it has to go fast. We were looking at the Nissan GT-R, the Mitsubishi Evolution, those cars were in our heads at the original stage.

Then we thought: Should we make a car that is faster than the GT-R?

You know what we did then? We did a lot of research. We talked to owners, fanatics, real buyers of sports cars around the world. They told us: Speed isn’t everything. If it’s just an incredibly fast car, they don’t really want it. What they want is a sports car that is small, compact, light, and that handles just the way they want it to handle.

The super-super-super fast cars are only for the super-rich. Even most super-rich don’t want to buy them. The people I talked to were looking for something like the 80s kind of a sports car, echoes of an AE86. They wanted a stripped-down, basic sports car with the price more like that of a piece of sports equipment, not the price of a house. Those people wanted something that doesn’t exist."

From http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...hief-engineer/.

That is Tetsuya Tada referencing the Toyota 86 project, BTW.

[DougNuts]

Originally Posted by OrangeJuleas

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this sentiment. There is nothing wrong with an FRS sedan. In fact, the think the rendering/prototype hatchback in red shown before is pretty damn sexy, something I would drive myself. I just think this is the wrong direction for Toyota to take. Stick to the platform, keep its strengths and work with them, not against them.

That's the point I was trying to make - but I disagree that adding 2 doors and 4" of wheelbase is going to ruin the platform or mandate some giant weight increase. Some current owners are acting like Toyota building something else on this platform is going to take something away from them and I say those people are young and naive. I've owned a wide enough spectrum of cars and am old enough to know that the exclusivity of a certain car isn't a replacement for anything. As an enthusiast, exclusivity can be a pain. Furthermore, 99.999% of people have no idea what a GT86 is, previous or current models.

I also don't see how a lightweight RWD anything could be the wrong direction for a car company, particularly for a bland appliance company like Toyota. As someone who has never previously been interested in any Toyota car, but is not brand loyal at all, I just don't get it - does not compute.

Some of the posts in this thread have read like "You want a 4-door, F-you, buy a Corolla" and that is a pretty crappy stance to take, particularly among like minded individuals who just need a little bit more practicality.

Some people think that Toyota is going to ruin a legacy by not changing the name. Trust me folks, that legacy you're thinking about is more like a teeny tiny cult following. Hell, they don't even call it the GT86 here.

I'm not trying to argue or debate with anyone, I'm trying to open up your minds that nobody is losing anything by Toyota making a sedan or hatchback version of this car - in fact, I think Toyota, and it's fanboi's, may actually begin to gain the reputation that some are so adamant about protecting.

[DougNuts]

"We talked to owners, fanatics, real buyers of sports cars around the world. They told us: Speed isn’t everything. If it’s just an incredibly fast car, they don’t really want it. What they want is a sports car that is small, compact, light, and that handles just the way they want it to handle.

The super-super-super fast cars are only for the super-rich. Even most super-rich don’t want to buy them. The people I talked to were looking for something like the 80s kind of a sports car, echoes of an AE86. They wanted a stripped-down, basic sports car with the price more like that of a piece of sports equipment, not the price of a house. Those people wanted something that doesn’t exist."

Exactly, as I mentioned previously, I had a CTS-V sedan which would wax an 86 in anything but the tightest autocross. It was great on the highway, but it was just too much car on the street. For about 1.5 years I had it and a '97 Civic sedan with a manual and a few mods. No matter which car I got out of, I thought "man, this has a nice feel to it" when I got in the other one.

I think a 2900lb FRS sedan could be the best of both worlds - and it is a car that doesn't currently exist in the U.S.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by OrangeJuleas

Not that I would have a problem with a sedan version of the car, but the logic is strange:


"Yeah, but can we also make it a heavier family sedan without any of the characteristics of the AE86/2000GT/Sports 800 on which it was based?"

"Sure, and while we're at it, let's convince Mazda to build a four door Miata too. I mean, cheap fun RWD convertibles aren't in demand. How about a Mustang sedan? I mean, who doesn't want a Mustang with a decent-size back seat?"

Miata:
I disagree. The Miata, like the S2000 is a different car. It's a 2 door sports roadster from its inception. Neither were coupes or sedans that were "made into" roadsters, they were roadsters from the very beginning. Making them into a coupe and then adding 2 more doors or a hatch is a 2 stage progression. Taking a car that is inherently a coupe (FRS) and adding 2 more doors is only a 1 stage progression. Think of BMW, a 325 Coupe and a 325 Sedan isn't exactly a "leap" of the imagination is it?

Mustang:
Ford has sold 59,165 Mustangs YTD in the USA in 2013.
Scion has sold 14,767 FRS's YTD in the USA in 2013.

:edited: Clearly Ford doesn't need a 4 door Mustang. But hey, look... there must be demand because Ford has been toying with the idea for years. ...
Exhibit A: :edited: (article is from 2012, and no, the Mustang Sedan doesn't exist).
http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/first...-mustang-sedan

Originally Posted by OrangeJuleas

@rice_classic, I'm not saying they shouldn't expand the platform. But going to a sedan version is going in a different direction.

A direction of selling more cars. Yes, that is correct.

The problem is that the FRS intrinsically creates its own need for a 4 door option. Did you know that the FRS has a draw from buyers because it has back seats?... It's true. The existence of back seats is a selling a point vs a roadster. Did you know those back seats are useless for passengers? It's true, unless the 4 people in the car are all 4 feet tall, it really is a 2 passenger car. I am proof, I am representative of demand who can definitively say: I want a 4 door FRS. If the current version of this car had back seats that were actually functional then I wouldn't but they aren't so I do.

Originally Posted by OrangeJuleas

Also, one of the reasons this car can be sold without all the "bells and whistles" is that at its heart, it is a sports car. Obviously, turning this into a family sedan will need to add a lot of stuff to it standard to make it compete with other sedans that are just fully loaded. If you don't see this happening, look at the Panamera.

Actually the reason this car is sold without bells and whistles is because they had designed it to be so with the intention of a specific price point. They already have a high end sports car (IS-F, IS350, LFA). They deliberately made a $25k sports car and you can't really do that with all the bells and whistles.

They don't need to add any bells or whistles. Just add 2 more doors and rear legroom and price it the same as the coupe. Voila.. more sales.

Originally Posted by OrangeJuleas

They took an iconic sports car and made it a sedan, and while the driving dynamics are somewhat similar to a 911, inside it is more like a Cayenne. That is how I feel about this. Maybe not selling out, and definitely not an inferior product, but you lose the heart behind it.

Who cares?! Porsche owners like Porches. If they want a 4 door 911 or a Porsche SUV... who cares?

But for kicks and giggles, let's compare how this atrocity of a 4-door 911 compares to the 911:

2012 USA sales of 911's: 8528
2012 USA sales of Panameras: 7614

I'd say compared to the 911, there was plenty of demand for a 4 door. I simply cannot say the existence of the 4-door 911 detracts one bit from the 911. And who cares anyway. I remember 911 owners getting butt-hurt when the boxster came out or even when the 911 became water-cooled!! Remember when Jerry Seinfield said: "A real sports car is air-cooled". Needless to say, he's come around on that one.

Originally Posted by OrangeJuleas

It would instantly lose all of its heritage is what I'm saying. They might as well call it the New RWD Corolla Sport.

Heritage? Since when is any Scion endowed with "heritage". The brand itself has barely been around a decade.

And if I recall the "heritage" of the GT86, the AE86, was a 5th generation Corolla.

If the 4 door FRS was renamed a Toyota Corolla Sport. I would still buy it, I mean hey, at least I'd own a Toyota right?

[rice_classic]

"They told us: Speed isn’t everything. If it’s just an incredibly fast car, they don’t really want it. What they want is a sports car that is small, compact, light, and that handles just the way they want it to handle.

The super-super-super fast cars are only for the super-rich. Even most super-rich don’t want to buy them. The people I talked to were looking for something like the 80s kind of a sports car, echoes of an AE86. They wanted a stripped-down, basic sports car with the price more like that of a piece of sports equipment, not the price of a house. Those people wanted something that doesn’t exist."

From http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...hief-engineer/.

That is Tetsuya Tada referencing the Toyota 86 project, BTW.

It's the same logic with the 4 door. "Those people want something that doesn't exist."

[daiheadjai]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

They spent a damn fortune to make this car. Brand new engine and chassis and transmission and it wasn't all for a car that's going to sell like a Civic or an Optima. Toyota/FHI need to make this thing profitable. The best way to do that is expand it into something more people want.

There are people that want convertible sports cars, 4 door rwd sports cars, rwd sports wagons/shooting brake (that'd be me) and so on and so forth. It would be economic myopia to not expand the platform. It's not only a moral imperative, it's a financial one and frankly it's one that we should be embracing and I'm ashamed that there's people here who are poo-pooing the idea of more rwd sports options being available.

The sedan is in obvious demand. I'm at that (unfortunate) age where now every one of my friends are married and working on their 1st or 2nd child and they all looked at the car and said the same thing right away: "Can't get much in those backs seats can you?"

A Sedan means a car like this can still be sold to guys like that.

I'm in this cohort too - 30-somethings who need more than a 2 door coupe.
A fun, light, inexpensive/reasonably-priced RWD sedan would be awesome.
The IS250 doesn't count because it sucks (only the IS350/IS-F seems designed with driving pleasure in mind).

A 4-door 86-based sedan (which I doubt they would call 86 or FR-Sedan or anything like that) would be like the first generation IS200/Altezza as they were in Japan and Europe (except hopefully with a bit more speed/performance). IIRC, some versions of the IS200 got the 3S-GE BEAMS engine to bump power up to 220ps in a nice, light-ish RWD package.

What's not to like?

[OrangeJuleas]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Miata:
I disagree. The Miata, like the S2000 is a different car. It's a 2 door sports roadster from its inception. Neither were coupes or sedans that were "made into" roadsters, they were roadsters from the very beginning. Making them into a coupe and then adding 2 more doors or a hatch is a 2 stage progression. Taking a car that is inherently a coupe (FRS) and adding 2 more doors is only a 1 stage progression. Think of BMW, a 325 Coupe and a 325 Sedan isn't exactly a "leap" of the imagination is it?

I suppose the FR-S/BRZ/86 is technically a GT rather than a sports roadster. But the inspiration was: 1. Light, 2. RWD, 3. Sporty. Very similar to the S2000/Miata. That is why they are cross-shopped with this car. I will grant you that it won't be much of a stretch. Then again, as you showed below, a 4 door Mustang isn't much of a stretch either. The M3 is a good example of a good transition, but they refined the model first.

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Mustang:
Ford has sold 59,165 Mustangs YTD in the USA in 2013.
Scion has sold 14,767 FRS's YTD in the USA in 2013.

Clearly Ford doesn't need a 4 door Mustang. But hey, look... there must be demand because...
Exhibit A:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/first...-mustang-sedan

Interesting. I have never seen that. It looks...alright. But 50 years of coupe-only form and I can understand a big change like this. They should probably have looked into this years ago. But look what came first. Light, sporty muscle car evolves into beastly supercharged muscle car offered as a coupe, convertible, or fastback. They played with 4 cylinder Mustangs before and they did not last. Am I saying change is bad? No. Just that Ford found the natural progression of a vehicle of that type.

Originally Posted by rice_classic

A direction of selling more cars. Yes, that is correct.

The problem is that the FRS intrinsically creates its own need for a 4 door option. Did you know that the FRS has a draw from buyers because it has back seats?... It's true. The existence of back seats is a selling a point vs a roadster. Did you know those back seats are useless for passengers? It's true, unless the 4 people in the car are all 4 feet tall, it really is a 2 passenger car. I am proof, I am representative of demand who can definitively say: I want a 4 door FRS. If the current version of this car had back seats that were actually functional then I wouldn't but they aren't so I do.

It's also a draw for insurance companies, which sometimes use the back seat to differentiate a sports car from a coupe. My insurance is lower with the FRS than if I had bought an equally priced Miata. In this case, I believe the natural progression would be to a 2 door sports car, a la 300ZX. 2+2 and coupe. Also, I have fit people in the back seat (once with two people about 6 feet). But, I did not buy the car with the intention of using it functionally. I knew its limitations when I bought it. I assume you were looking for what the 86 offered, and not what it doesn't. Now, they are considering increasing the wheelbase about 4 inches. Is that going to provide you with G35/IS250/ETC. levels of comfort?

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Actually the reason this car is sold without bells and whistles is because they had designed it to be so with the intention of a specific price point. They already have a high end sports car (IS-F, IS350, LFA). They deliberately made a $25k sports car and you can't really do that with all the bells and whistles.

They don't need to add any bells or whistles. Just add 2 more doors and rear legroom and price it the same as the coupe. Voila.. more sales.

I don't think it's quite as easy as *bam* more sales. They will have to pour money into the project to create something for an even more niche market: lightweight RWD sport sedans. There will be a need for better speakers as well, better HVAC, etc... It would be like taking the interior of a Camry into an FRS. Comfort is the reason for sedans. If you weren't worried about comfort, then shouldn't the back seat be enough as it is?

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Who cares?! Porsche owners like Porches. If they want a 4 door 911 or a Porsche SUV... who cares?

But for kicks and giggles, let's compare how this atrocity of a 4-door 911 compares to the 911:

2012 USA sales of 911's: 8528
2012 USA sales of Panameras: 7614

I'd say compared to the 911, there was plenty of demand for a 4 door. I simply cannot say the existence of the 4-door 911 detracts one bit from the 911. And who cares anyway. I remember 911 owners getting butt-hurt when the boxster came out or even when the 911 became water-cooled!! Remember when Jerry Seinfield said: "A real sports car is air-cooled". Needless to say, he's come around on that one.

Whoa whoa whoa...don't get me wrong, they pulled it off. But again, after years of refinement on the base platform and experimentation with the natural progression. Turbo, AWD, Convertible. Sports car things. When they had the means, they did it. Remember the 989? Of course not. They wanted to build the Panamera back in the late 1980's and they had the engineering but not the money. They have both now. Many of us haven't even had proper fixes for the crickets yet.

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Heritage? Since when is any Scion endowed with "heritage". The brand itself has barely been around a decade.

And if I recall the "heritage" of the GT86, the AE86, was a 5th generation Corolla.

If the 4 door FRS was renamed a Toyota Corolla Sport. I would still buy it, I mean hey, at least I'd own a Toyota right?

And the 2000GT, and the Sports 800. In fact, it looks even more like the 2000GT than a Corolla. But the spirit again, was lightweight, RWD, sports coupe.

And you know when I say heritage I mean Toyota's heritage. Scion, to me, is just another of Toyota's sales outlets (Toyota Store, Toyopet Store, Netz Store). The Corolla has changed directions since that time, which is why people look back at the AE86 fondly - as the last of its kind. Yes, it was a Corolla. In 1982, the base engine for the newly redesigned Camaro was the 2.5L I4. It made about 90 HP. Was it a Camaro? Yes. But it was different.

I am fully on board with building a car without consideration for the badge - after all, that's how the 86 was born. But sometimes a Corolla is not a Corolla.

FWIW @daiheadjai, Nobuaki Katayama, who was the engineer for the AE86, went on to head the Altezza/IS project later. He also worked on the MkIV Supra. Go figure. He might be the guy to get this done.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by OrangeJuleas

They will have to pour money into the project to create something for an even more niche market: lightweight RWD sport sedans. There will be a need for better speakers as well, better HVAC, etc... It would be like taking the interior of a Camry into an FRS. Comfort is the reason for sedans. If you weren't worried about comfort, then shouldn't the back seat be enough as it is?

I don't know why you think a 4 door car is a niche market. I think it must be opposite day. 2 door cars are a niche market and sports cars are a niche market and thusly, a 2-door sports car is a very niche market. The expansion to 4-doors just makes this car "less-niche". Also, there is an insignificant amount of investment (big picture) to modify an existing platform to add something as a simple as a drop-top or 4 doors.

You associate "sedan" with Camry, with comfort, with luxury but that's you're own fault. That's your perception, but it's not the definition of the term.

Clearly when you think "sedan" you see this:
or this

When I think of sedan I see this:
or this Or even this



It's just like the term "Convertible" or "Roadster".

I see this:


My mother sees this: