Phantom Charger Poll

[PowderfaceTr.]

Please do the math, here.

If I took this to the air strip and ran passes the battery would become dead.

The ratio of increase in engine torque to electrical draw is too high for a sports car.

Maybe in a mail truck it would work. Provided the FE savings can offset the initial cost to the Canada Post fleet. This is great tech. When you get 200 HP out of a 1L petrol engine I will invest.

Originally Posted by Gary in NJ

I really don't want this thread to displace the technical discussion that is on-going in the thread noted in post #1. However, are you concerned about compressor surge? Remember that this unit only makes 2psi at high rpm. So there really isn't anything to be concerned about.

Look at a Tuned N/A Bore/stroked Hyabusa. They average around 320HP.

This is high rpm tuning that you can only get with tiny motor design. Yes, it lacks robustness reliability of a street car engine. But point and case, we are all trying to fill the area under the torque curve.

Gains are to be had in the high rpm. Your supercharger WILL only ever flow at pressure in the low RPM range, where your diminished returns are hidden.

[fenton]

Originally Posted by PowderfaceTr.

Please do the math, here.

If I took this to the air strip and ran passes the battery would become dead.

The ratio of increase in engine torque to electrical draw is too high for a sports car.

Maybe in a mail truck it would work. Provided the FE savings can offset the initial cost to the Canada Post fleet. This is great tech. When you get 200 HP out of a 1L petrol engine I will invest.




Look at a Tuned N/A Bore/stroked Hyabusa. They average around 320HP.

This is high rpm tuning that you can only get with tiny motor design. Yes, it lacks robustness reliability of a street car engine. But point and case, we are all trying to fill the area under the torque curve.

Gains are to be had in the high rpm. Your supercharger WILL only ever flow at pressure in the low RPM range, where your diminished returns are hidden.

We have proven that this does work on a street car....nobody has said that this is a suitable option for a track car.

Im willing to bet that 99.9 percent of FRS will not see a airstrip :P lol.

This is to have fun, get good tq and decent power for a minimal investment in both money and time. Most FRS owners will also love the simplicity to return to stock for dealer visits, i personally have done 2 already I call it dealer mode haha

[hmong337]

Depends on price...

[silent runner]

What almost everybody seems to miss in this thread is the idea, once again, of a much broader hp, and torque curve. It's great to have a direct injection enhanced 2.0L engine that can make 200, flywheel hp, but it only does this for a tiny range of rpm in each gear. - Same applies to torque numbers. This type of boost system, will produce above peak factory numbers, in a much broader range than the stock, N/A system could ever hope to make, and simulates the over-all output of a much more powerful engine in daily driving, and actual measured performance numbers. It's the total area under the curve that pushes the car down the road. It's already beat flywheel numbers in peak whp, and it completely destroys the stock out-put curves in torque and hp along the way! In most ways, this system could knock off a revised stock version of the car that put out 230 whp at something like 8500rpm! What more could you guys want for $1500-1800 car mod?I can't think of anything that might even come close.

[MikeW]

So I spend 1500 and get low end torque comparable to what I would get for 3000. But for the extra 3000 I also get high end torque and expandability. Seems to me that if you are willing to spend 1500 to enhance performance of a 26000 car than you ought to be willing to spend another 1500 to make it a big boy mod.

The system will always be limited by a fixed flow that is dependent on kw availability from the engine, whatever size - 2.0L +/-. This is why this solution is not taken seriously. However, as a toy that slaps on and off faster than you can eat a sandwich its pretty darn neat. I would buy it for $200 to have some kicks, but for 1500 I would just spend the extra amount to get proper boost.

I do love the R&D and as parts become cheaper and batteries become better you never know where the price point could go. But its all about price point, it will never ever compare to conventional FI systems, as everyone involves agrees. So its all about price, as I see it.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by MikeW

So I spend 1500 and get low end torque comparable to what I would get for 3000. But for the extra 3000 I also get high end torque and expandability. Seems to me that if you are willing to spend 1500 to enhance performance of a 26000 car than you ought to be willing to spend another 1500 to make it a big boy mod.

The system will always be limited by a fixed flow that is dependent on kw availability from the engine, whatever size - 2.0L +/-. This is why this solution is not taken seriously. However, as a toy that slaps on and off faster than you can eat a sandwich its pretty darn neat. I would buy it for $200 to have some kicks, but for 1500 I would just spend the extra amount to get proper boost.

I do love the R&D and as parts become cheaper and batteries become better you never know where the price point could go. But its all about price point, it will never ever compare to conventional FI systems, as everyone involves agrees. So its all about price, as I see it.

I have to ask, what system are you comparing to? I imagine you're talking about the innovate system? That's the only system that gives a similar torque experience. I think they are a bit more than 3000, but ballpark we can call it that. Plus installation if you aren't handy. It's a good system, but from what the initial dynos tell us so far, the esc really isn't that far behind the innovate on the top end. They make about 225 rwhp basic configuration. The esc makes about 200ish, with the new compressor I'm hoping that it will make at least another 20whp. I think it has a stronger low end than the innovate system too. For less money. What the innovate system buys you is inexhaustible thrust (think high speed track days, extended throttle time), and potential for more power (albeit at even more cost). Really not competitive systems, just like innovate is not competing with high power turbo systems.


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[Gary in NJ]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

What the innovate system buys you is inexhaustible thrust (think high speed track days, extended throttle time), and potential for more power (albeit at even more cost). Really not competitive systems, just like innovate is not competing with high power turbo systems.

I like the Innovative system. But the other things you get with it are higher IAT and higher fuel burn. For the cost, nothing will boost like the Phantom ESC at low rpm...right where this engine needs the most help.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by Gary in NJ

I like the Innovative system. But the other things you get with it are higher IAT and higher fuel burn. For the cost, nothing will boost like the Phantom ESC at low rpm...right where this engine needs the most help.

Same here, I like what Innovate has done, and I dig the sounds it makes. Curiosity got the best of me though, so I took a posted Innovate baseline dyno (hope you don't mind sw20kosh!) and overlaid the thattruth2001's dyno from Drift-Office on top. Take it for what it's worth:

1) Both are dynojets, but not the same, not same location, not same day, etc.
2) Cars are not equal - I don't know what bolt ons thattruth2001 has. The innovate car has overpipe and downpipe I think.

Purpose of this is to roughly compare the *shape* of the two curves more than anything. Disclaimer: I don't want any flak, I don't want any naysayers, not trying to prove anything, not saying they are directly comparable, it's just in the name of research

Red lines are Innovate out of the box, 91 octane. Blue lines are Innovate with some sort of meth injection, 91 octane. Dark green is thattruth2001's baseline, the two upper light green lines are hp and torque for the ESC during drift-office's test.

The innovate shows significant advantage over the ESC 6000 rpm and above, the ESC shows significant advantage over the Innovate system below about 4500. Will be interesting to see how the new compressor gains over the existing ESC.

[jflogerzi]

I think for me it will come down to price. If its in the 1200-1500$ I might have to jump on this. This is the perfect system for the daily driver car. I would love to see how it deals with any track use. But this system cheaply gives this car what it really needs and that's a nice low end boost TQ and a decent peak HP increase.

[harkbrz]

Can't wait for this! I've been following the main thread for months, its what made me decide to join this forum. I'll more than likely be an early adopter. Really does seem like the perfect solution for day to day driving.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

The innovate shows significant advantage over the ESC 6000 rpm and above, the ESC shows significant advantage over the Innovate system below about 4500.

Interesting, it's almost like how the sprintex compares to vortech.

The Vortech shows significant advantage over the Sprintex 6000 rpm and above, the Sprintex shows significant advantage over the Vortech system below about 5500.

[continuecrushing]

I have cash in hand. For the price(well, the estimated price, for those idiots that are gonna quote me saying price has not been specified...but it seems we're looking at 1500-1800), NOTHING BEATS IT.

Would I love to spend money on a sc or turbo? Sure...but I don't want to fork out the extra money for it, plus the supporting mods. So saying that if you want to spend $2k on a toy, you might as well be a big boy and spend $5k is stupid. For the price, this is awesome.

Price, I think is the biggest factor for most.

The limitations on the system have been over(over and over and over and over and over...I think you get the point) mentioned. Yes, we know with the esc we won't have unlimited boost like a sc/turbo, but for the average street car, it's gonna be damn fun.

[rskdsk]

I have been interested ... but there is not anyone with actual real world data and charts ... besides the vendors

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by rskdsk

I have been interested ... but there is not anyone with actual real world data and charts ... besides the vendors

Drift office did a write up earlier in the other thread, read through it. It hasn't been released yet, so you're not going to get dynos from the general public. That said, I trust the several testers on this forum that have been providing lots of great feedback about the system over the past few months. Even dynos, and they are not working for the vendor (rob). I understand the skeptics though - the system will prove itself to the public when it is released. I'm gonna get one.


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