Which would you pick?

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Calum

Unless you have broad shoulders. I just don't fit in an S2000.

S2000 has WAY tf more shoulder and hip room than the Elise!

[Calum]

Originally Posted by ZDan

S2000 has WAY more shoulder and hip room than the Elise!

That's scary. Well, I guess I can take one of them off my wish list.

[ZDan]

Cirrusly, I'm 5'10" 158 lb, with like-sized student in driver's seat of his Elise we are literally shoulder to shoulder, and I have to really pay attention to keep my left arm out of the way so he can shift. S2000 is a Crown Vic in comparison, as far as personal space goes.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Cirrusly, I'm 5'10" 158 lb, with like-sized student in driver's seat of his Elise we are literally shoulder to shoulder, and I have to really pay attention to keep my left arm out of the way so he can shift. S2000 is a Crown Vic in comparison, as far as personal space goes.

That's unfortunate. For what it's worth, there's plenty of room in a Cayman.

[thill]

Yeah, the Elise is not made for larger people, hauling a passenger, taking long road trips in, or hauling anything else but a small overnight bag. Nothing wrong with that, because everything else about the car is just so amazing.

You just have to know what you are getting. For me, I would consider it a toy car only. A play car.

[DarkSunrise]

So I spent the weekend in a Mustang V6 convertible driving PCH. Pretty disappointed. I hoped the V6 would feel lighter and handle better than the 5.0 GT I had driven, but the difference was minimal.

Now that I've driven the lighter V6 Mustang for a few days, I'm surprised people compare it to the FR-S/BRZ to be honest. The best way to describe the Mustang is soft. The auto tranny is slow to downshift on the highway, so even though there's 300 hp on tap, the car always feels sluggish. There is a lot of body roll and brake dive in the corners, and there's no escaping the weight when you're tossing it around. Almost boat-like with its size and the way it rolls around.

It wasn't all bad. The interior is pretty nice (other than the gauges) and the steering is more precise than I expected. But even with these pluses, the driving position is awful and the steering, while precise, doesn't offer a whole lot of feedback.

Based on my experiences with the slushbox V6 and manual 5.0/GT Mustangs, the sad fact I'm realizing is that it might be impossible to overcome the limitations of the s197 chassis (large size, heavy weight, poor driving position). I haven't quite crossed the Boss 302 off my list, but the chassis tuning would have to be radically better for me to consider it at this point.

Next up, I'd like to test out an Elise or Exige. If that proves too impractical, my only options might be the Cayman S or converting the FR-S to more serious track use. Having driven all these cars, one thing that's becoming clear is how rare cars like the Cayman S and Twins are. As 80-20 street-track cars, they're exceptional. They really set the bar as driver's cars for their respective price points.

Originally Posted by ZDan

Doing yourself a disservice not considering an S2000. Cheap to buy, cheap to own, massively fun to drive while being a lot more practical than the Elise.

I considered it, but the convertible aspect is a pain for track use.

[strat61caster]

I haven't said this in awhile but I think it should be said here:

The 86 is what Porsche would build if they HAD to put out a $25k sports car today. I can't think of anything they would have done differently, at least on a spec sheet.

Edit: Hell the silhouette would probably be ~90% similar.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

I haven't said this in awhile but I think it should be said here:

The 86 is what Porsche would build if they HAD to put out a $25k sports car today. I can't think of anything they would have done differently, at least on a spec sheet.

Edit: Hell the silhouette would probably be ~90% similar.

That's a great way of putting it. The 86 really embodies the poor-man's Cayman to me. That makes sense since Toyota/Subaru were reportedly benchmarking the 987 Cayman during development.

What scares me about just stepping up to a Cayman S is the cost of maintaining it for track use, and for pre-2009 Caymans, the possibility of IMS failure. People complain about DI seal failures with our cars, but the IMS failure rate on the Caymans is an entire order of magnitude higher, some say as high as 5%.

[Diode Dynamics]

The E92 M3 is probably one of the best cars I've ever driven. Aside from being an absolute thrill to drive, the sound of that high-revving 4.0L V8 are totally worth the potential maintenance nightmares.

The Cayman is a very very close second

Nick C.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

What scares me about just stepping up to a Cayman S is the cost of maintaining it for track use, and for pre-2009 Caymans, the possibility of IMS failure. People complain about DI seal failures with our cars, but the IMS failure rate on the Caymans is an entire order of magnitude higher, some say as high as 5%.

From the numbers I've seen, it's a lot lower than that (and believe me, I've researched it pretty heavily). IMS failure on 987.1 cars is probably in the neighborhood of 1% or so at the highest. The 986 Boxsters on the other hand had a very high IMS failure rate (I've heard numbers as high as 20% thrown around, though I doubt it's quite that high). It's definitely a concern, but I wouldn't say it's a huge deal for a 987 car. On the other hand, if you're in the market for a convertible, I would be very hesitant to buy a 986 Boxster due to IMS issues.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by chrisl

From the numbers I've seen, it's a lot lower than that (and believe me, I've researched it pretty heavily). IMS failure on 987.1 cars is probably in the neighborhood of 1% or so at the highest. The 986 Boxsters on the other hand had a very high IMS failure rate (I've heard numbers as high as 20% thrown around, though I doubt it's quite that high). It's definitely a concern, but I wouldn't say it's a huge deal for a 987 car. On the other hand, if you're in the market for a convertible, I would be very hesitant to buy a 986 Boxster due to IMS issues.

Thanks. Is there any correlation between track-use and IMS failure? Also is there any permanent fix for it?

I've heard Porsche charges between $12-15k for a brand new engine. I could swing the repair bill if I had to, but it definitely makes me think twice about owning a PCS out of warranty, especially if it will be driven hard.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Thanks. Is there any correlation between track-use and IMS failure? Also is there any permanent fix for it?

I've heard Porsche charges between $12-15k for a brand new engine. I could swing the repair bill if I had to, but it definitely makes me think twice about owning a PCS out of warranty, especially if it will be driven hard.

I've heard a lot of different theories thrown around. Some people think that more frequent oil changes help, some people think that the most heavily affected cars are actually the garage queens (and that driving them frequently actually helps matters), and some people just recommend swapping the IMS with an aftermarket unit as soon as possible. I don't really know if there's much evidence one way or another, to be honest.

That having been said, I'd be more concerned about oil pressure under high lateral G force than the IMS bearing. 987.1 Caymans/Boxsters can occasionally have issues with low oil pressure on high speed cornering, especially if they are on race compound tires. I only track mine occasionally, but if I were taking it to the track all the time, I'd at least want an oil pressure monitor to make sure I wasn't losing oil pressure on fast corners.

(As for engine cost, I've heard that $12-15k number thrown around as well - hopefully I never have to find out for sure though...)

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by chrisl

I've heard a lot of different theories thrown around. Some people think that more frequent oil changes help, some people think that the most heavily affected cars are actually the garage queens (and that driving them frequently actually helps matters), and some people just recommend swapping the IMS with an aftermarket unit as soon as possible. I don't really know if there's much evidence one way or another, to be honest.

That having been said, I'd be more concerned about oil pressure under high lateral G force than the IMS bearing. 987.1 Caymans/Boxsters can occasionally have issues with low oil pressure on high speed cornering, especially if they are on race compound tires. I only track mine occasionally, but if I were taking it to the track all the time, I'd at least want an oil pressure monitor to make sure I wasn't losing oil pressure on fast corners.

(As for engine cost, I've heard that $12-15k number thrown around as well - hopefully I never have to find out for sure though...)

Good information to know. I remember reading about the oil starvation issue as well when I was looking into the Cayman S a couple of years ago. I would stay on street tires, so I wasn't too worried about it at the time. Perhaps 2009+ model is the answer?

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Eh no love for the Mustangs? I thought there'd be at least some votes for the Boss 302. Somewhat collectible, fast, trackable, etc.

There are definitely philosophic similarities between the Cayman S and the Twins (driver's cars / relatively low-powered / spartan-interior, but daily-driveable) so I can see why it'd be winning.

The M3 is the most complete car (luxury, performance, practical), although perhaps a bit heavy for track use.

I voted M3, but if you're more on a budget the Boss 302 is pretty awesome. Gives the M3 a run for its money at the track (maybe even a better track car :O) and doesn't have the BMW tax on it.

Otherwise, M3 or Cayman S .

Personally, if I got another car I would want it to be a different feel than the FR-S but otherwise the Cayman S is a good solid pick. I just love the sound of that engine in the M3 and the legendary race track status, room, and utility. I'd daily drive it for sure if I didn't care about cost/mpg.