rev matching

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Last time I checked, heel-toeing does actually help with smooth (down)shifting.

[LeeMaster]

Originally Posted by stugray

Also, for those talking about heel toeing this car.... I'm not sure they have actually tried it:
1 - the pedals are not set up (very well) for heel & toe
2 - The ECU does some strange things when trying to heel toe (wont let the revs stay up with the clutch in) I believe.

1) The pedals are one of the best pedals I have ever done heel toe with compared to any other MT cars I've ever driven and better than a 97 Impreza that I dd. The only one that's probably better or equal to this car for me would be an 07 SI. Not sure if shoe size plays a factor with pedal but I wear size 10.

2) If the RPMs drop too low then you are either not giving it enough gas or you need more practice(The proper way). My ecu dont ever play any tricks to me gear-wise as far as I'm concerned. Keeping the revs up is what you the driver have to do, not the computer like what a 370Z would.

[stugray]

Originally Posted by LeeMaster

1) The pedals are one of the best pedals I have ever done heel toe with compared to any other MT cars I've ever driven

I just tried it again while driving.
It is definitely possible, but my pedals do not line up quite even with mild brake pressure. I know there is some adjustment on the brake side, I'll see if it can get it a little better.
The gas pedal is definitely too sensitive unless you are wearing driving shoes or barefoot (at least based on the shoes I am currently wearing).
My racecar is set up perfectly for it. The pedal hinges from the floor.
When you press it with your foot, it moves easily, but press with your heel and you have very little leverage so it is less sensitive.
Sometimes we actually stiffen up the pedal for less sensitivity when racing.

Originally Posted by LeeMaster

2) If the RPMs drop too low then you are either not giving it enough gas or you need more practice(The proper way). My ecu dont ever play any tricks to me gear-wise as far as I'm concerned. Keeping the revs up is what you the driver have to do, not the computer like what a 370Z would.

I believe it only applies at high RPM (above 5k). The engine has a different rev limit during shifting. I can look through the ECU tables to see what the RPM number it kicks in at.

[Sciby]

Originally Posted by twoodcc

thanks everyone for the replies. i plan on practicing this weekend.

What about double clutching?

As other people mentioned, double clutching is out of date thanks to modern gearboxes, but for an example of it, you can hear Mr. McQueen double-clutching through this clip:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBLOLi_Ex-Q"]Bullitt Chase - YouTube[/ame]

When you hear it, keep in mind he's putting the clutch in, shifting to neutral, clutch out, blip throttle, clutch in, next gear, clutch out, throttle open. All in under a second.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

The funny thing is, I learned how to double-clutch before I learned how to rev-match. I had a mental hurdle when trying not to double-clutch (since it's not necessary), even though in my head I felt like I was breaking something by not doing it, haha.

[mitosis]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Heel toe, skipping gears, and double clutching have nothing to do with what the OP is looking for: smooth gear changes. It takes finesse and practice and there's no right way to do it, find your own rhythm, watch a couple videos and don't worry about wannabe racecar drivers. Practice, everybody learns in time and the above whinging and ego stroking trying to show off your technique is inconsequential to seat time. KISS: Keep it simple stupid.

Good point... got a little OT and distracted answering cantaloupe and DoomsdayJesus's questions. Really not trying to ego stroke or racecar wannabe so sorry if if the following seems like "showing off my technique"... just trying to pay it forward and do what was done for me in the past by passing on a bit of what I've figured out over the years. Yes, seat time is invaluable but everyone has different learning styles and I know I've certainly had my fair share of "ah hah" moments after reading or watching a well worded description or two. What sounds like gibberish nonsense to you might be exactly what someone else needed to hear in order for it to all click with them.

Rev matching during a downshift is an effective method of keeping those gear changes smooth on the way down. It is out of a desire for smoothness and the implied reduction in clutch wear that I even bother with all the effort of doing it so I can relate to the OP's want for smooth shifts.

So yes, twoodcc, as strat61caster said here... it takes finesse and practice so keep at it and honestly after 10 years of driving with 7+ years exclusively on manual transmissions I never actually knew how to rev match correctly (and very well might STILL be doing it incorrectly) until I got my FR-S and realized that I'd been doing something wrong all along since my downshifts in the FR-S were so harsh and one of my coworkers made a comment about me "just dropping the clutch". I wound up googling "how to rev match" and watching some videos on YouTube that night and it helped me a lot.

It turns out I'd always been trying to finesse the pedal and hold the RPM at the desired frequency during my shift or trying to do the "launch technique" type of pedal movement ie a "trading one pedal for another" type of movement where I would get back onto the gas at the same rate as I was letting off the clutch. That had worked just fine with my Honda transmissions which are like a sexy lady made of butter and covered with KY jelly for how slippy and smooth they are.

It turns out that the proper technique is more of a quick kick of the gas pedal RIGHT as you begin letting out the clutch (you gotta do it fast and smooth though) and now I've even found that if I downshift right at at a certain engine note each time I can pull off the rev match by simply whacking the pedal to the floor and letting off of it as fast as I can so I've taken all the guess work out of it as long as I do the shift at exactly the right engine RPM. The motion becomes: onto clutch, move lever, whack gas and off of clutch at the same moment... works like a charm every time if I do it right about when the engine note hits B sharp minor 5th

Now it's something I do every time because it's just so darn satisfying to pull off a completely undetectable downshift as far as body-lurching goes (obviously you can still hear the RPM change) and it's not something I get right every time which makes it all the more satisfying and glorious when I do pull it off right.

Regarding shifting on the way up like you were asking about in the OP, I know exactly what you're talking about with the "holding it in the sweet spot for a second" thing and I still find myself doing that if I'm being lazy or haven't gotten into the right shifting rhythm for the day. For me I always feel like the motion my foot makes when I do manage to get an upshift that turns out perfectly smooth is like a slow-motion version of a rubber ball bouncing: one continuous motion of the foot that is quick on the way down, ramping up in movement speed as I approach bottoming, with a little pause at the bottom and then releasing a bit slower than I went on the way down, ramping down in speed until I'm completely off the pedal.

Originally Posted by twoodcc

all i do to change gears is - let off gas, push in clutch, change gear, as i'm letting out clutch, i push on the gas, sometime hold the clutch in the sweet spot for half a sec, and then let all the way out.

Sounds to me like you're 90% there... you just need to push on the gas LESS at this point in time. At least I know that whenever I do the "hold it in the sweet spot" thing and slip the clutch it's usually because I'm giving too much gas too early and subconsciously I know that if I fully let out the clutch it'll chirp the wheels and/or just be a rough shift so my body forces me to hold the clutch there for a bit while the wheels catch up to the engine.

You mentioned that it happens to you more at high RPM which is the same for me when I'm not in the zone... I usually attribute it to the fact that at low RPM I'm not feeling the need to jump forward like a jackrabbit as much so the moment of no acceleration during shifting isn't as noticeable and I'm more patient and deliberate with the getting back on the gas. When I'm at high RPM on the other hand that moment of no acceleration during the shift is much more noticeable so I find myself getting impatient with my back-on-the-gassyness so I start to give too much gas too early and then the above mentioned subconscious urge to avoid wheel chirping and rough shifting kicks in and makes me do the "hold it in the sweet spot" thing.

If that made any sense at all to you then cool I hope it helps... if not sorry to waste your time, just go drive more and figure out what works for you.

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by stugray

Also, for those talking about heel toeing this car.... I'm not sure they have actually tried it:
1 - the pedals are not set up (very well) for heel & toe
2 - The ECU does some strange things when trying to heel toe (wont let the revs stay up with the clutch in) I believe.

I've had plenty of frustrations with computers on this car, but heel/toeing hasn't been one of them. I don't heel/toe that often, but I rev-match all my downshifts and I've never had the computer intervene with anything, including rev-matched downshifts into first gear, which is a very big RPM difference.

Now, traction control intervention while the system is "turned off" is another story...

[levifig]

Originally Posted by BRZ-OwnzJo0

I never rev match. Lazy.

On a similar note, does anyone else get a noticeable grind going into 3rd? It happens in most of the gears honestly from time to time but almost always going into 3rd. Feels like a bad syncro IMO.

Ya, I get that!
I also get grind when fast shifting into second either racing off the line or sliding off the line sideways… :/

[serialk11r]

What the heck? Double clutching isn't necessary? Sure, you can shift without double clutching, but synchros wear out. Double clutching saves synchros. Do it. One extra pedal press, and the shifter will slide into gear like butter and do so indefinitely.

When your synchros get worn down downshifting without double clutching becomes extremely hard to impossible (I would know, my car's synchros are shot).

[Marcoscrdo]

can someone record a video on the foot work?

[stugray]

Originally Posted by stugray

One thing I have noticed about this car: I cannot shift it without the clutch.
On all of my other cars I could rev match, and shift clutchless.
This car just does not let you do that.

I tried again this morning. I WAS able to upshift all 6 gears with no clutch.
If you want to see if you are hitting the correct RPMs for a shift, if you can do it without the clutch and no grinding, then you have found the sweet spot. Up to 3k, shift, it will usually drop right in at 2k.
Of course this will work at other rev ranges, but that is a start.

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

Now, traction control intervention while the system is "turned off" is another story...

If you really want to disable traction control entirely, look up the "pedal dance". It actually works.

[Chee-Hu]

OP, have you tried adjusting the clutch engagement? It helped me get much smoother shifts in the BRZ.

[Eurasianman]

Originally Posted by stugray

You will not hurt the tranny by skipping gears going up or down.

My car seems to really hate me when I downshift from 6th gear to 3rd gear (skipping 5th and 4th)

As in, it is either hard to get into that gear or it starts to grind a little (as soon as I hear it slightly grind, I put the gear in neutral and shift into the gear that precedes the previous gear i.e. 6th->5th).

Never had this problem with the last 3 vehicles I drove, all of which were manuals (2010 Cobalt SS turbocharged, 2007 Pontiac G5, 1997 Toyota Tacoma).

Just wanted to chime in on that real quick. Now back to your regular program.

[stugray]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

What the heck? Double clutching isn't necessary? Sure, you can shift without double clutching, but synchros wear out. Double clutching saves synchros. Do it. One extra pedal press, and the shifter will slide into gear like butter and do so indefinitely.

When your synchros get worn down downshifting without double clutching becomes extremely hard to impossible (I would know, my car's synchros are shot).

So on one hand, you say you need to double clutch (which based on that statement, we assume you do)
Yet you state that your synchros are already worn out.....hmmm...
Synchros were invented and used in almost all MTs today just so double clutching and rev matching are not required.
Synchros can get worn if the wrong MT fluid is used.... They need some friction to work correctly.