8 Car Brands Falling Behind.....Scion on the list

[thill]

Originally Posted by regal

I would counter that there were no Tc's sold last year where the engine failed, Toyota is just famous for selling a million engines a year that don't blow up. I think Subaru buyers have different expectations than Toyota/Scion buyers. A Subaru owner thinks nothing of a $2k head gasket replacement at 60k mi but a Toyota buyer would be like WTF. hyundai buyers expect 100k mi then the car can go to the junkyard (cause it literally has no resale left.)

The auto segment is much more varied than people think. Not all cars made today are perfect, far from it. Toyota light vehicles set the standard for initial quality, long term durability, and resale. We Toyota buyers just expect more.

Maybe people do abuse and mod the FA20 more than other cars but even for a first year vehicle there have been an unusually large number of blown engines reported just on this forum. Lot of head/cam problems leading to complete engine failure and of course the DI problems. You literally won't find any engine failures with last year's Tc for example.

And how many 2013 TC owners are adding super chargers, turbos, new fuel lines, getting tunes, etc and also tracking the crap out of these cars in the dead of summer without adding any additional cooling? I would argue the FT86 is going to see the track and get pushed far harder than the TC will. The FT86 platform will get modded much more than the TC will, and that alone will cause more isssues/failures.

There is no doubt there have been issues with the FT86 platform. Clearly there is a DI issue that affects some owners, but I am still not convinced it is nearly as big a deal as you have made it out to be.

Toyota engines are definitely reliable but lets not forget the acceleration fiasco that Toyota has spent billions on and continues to go to court over. No car company is perfect, and Toyota is quite good at the press/PR game.

[R3d]

Originally Posted by ThisIsChrisKim

I don't own a Hyundai and I'm not a huge fan, but saying that Hyundai is making terrible cars couldn't be further from the truth. Their new cars are really nice, and the Elentra and Sonata, particularly the interior, are far superior in quality and materials than the Corolla and Camry, respectively. Not to mention their exterior design language is more captivating and interesting than what Toyota has done for the past decade. They also backup their sales with an unbeatable warranty. You don't warranty your product for that long without knowing that your product will hold up over time--otherwise, they would just be eating costs for repairs.

Veloster turbo isn't a FR-S/BRZ competitor. It's FWD and rides on the Elantra platform. It's also $24k fully loaded with everything. $21k and it's well equipped. It's a faster version of a cool and unique car. A hot hatch it is not. If anything, it competes against a Civic Si and whatever tiny market that car competes in (not the hot hatch market since they're both down on power).

I know several people who own a Hyundai, a Sonata (sister), Veloster (colleague), and Elantra (friend), and all three plan on buying another Hyundai after their current ones are ready to be replaced.

Sure, Hyundai isn't targeting the enthusiast (aka us), but if they do decide to target us at some point, I have a feeling they'll make something that's compelling. Hell, it took Toyota/Subaru 10+ years to come out with the twins. How long till another company comes out with a competitor?

You make some valid points but you need to remember that here in canada cars are priced differently. Here the veloster turbo isn't 21 its 26, and if you do the research you will find that the veloster turbo is a shitty sports car! and by shitty I mean shitty :
here are 2 reviews who are fair IMO ( I would be harsher lol)

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...hyundai-page-2

http://www.motorweek.org/reviews/roa...veloster_turbo

its not a question of opinion its simply a fact. Same as the fr-s is a stunning sports car, you might not like the car itself but its well made and well balanced, something you don't find in the veloster (balanced). How in hell are they selling veloster turbo's over civic si's or vw gti is beyond me (Even if I hate the vw, its still not a bad car, I just don't like it !)

3 years ago I bought a honda si for 25,999( less cuz I bargained but it was listed @) and sold it this year to a dealer for 21500 tax included witch means I got 18,500 for my car in real life! A quick search in my area for a veloster turbo 2013 used and its already down to 21k-23k plus tax at the dealer witch means they bought it for around the price I sold my car !!

[thill]

Originally Posted by R3d

You make some valid points but you need to remember that here in canada cars are priced differently. Here the veloster turbo isn't 21 its 26, and if you do the research you will find that the veloster turbo is a shitty sports car! and by shitty I mean shitty :
here are 2 reviews who are fair IMO ( I would be harsher lol)

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...hyundai-page-2

http://www.motorweek.org/reviews/roa...veloster_turbo

its not a question of opinion its simply a fact. Same as the fr-s is a stunning sports car, you might not like the car itself but its well made and well balanced, something you don't find in the veloster (balanced). How in hell are they selling veloster turbo's over civic si's or vw gti is beyond me (Even if I hate the vw, its still not a bad car, I just don't like it !)

3 years ago I bought a honda si for 25,999( less cuz I bargained but it was listed @) and sold it this year to a dealer for 21500 tax included witch means I got 18,500 for my car in real life! A quick search in my area for a veloster turbo 2013 used and its already down to 21k-23k plus tax at the dealer witch means they bought it for around the price I sold my car !!

The reason Hyundai is selling the Veloster so well:
- It gets good MPG. Dealers will tell you this is typically one of the top concerns customers have when buying a car.
- It has distinctive styling. It is love it or hate it, but you can't blame Hyundai for trying not to be bland.
- It has tons of tech and standard features.
- It has a good warranty and Hyundai has changed their reputation.

That said, this car is never going to attract a driving enthusiast. It is going to attract someone who wants a stylish daily driver that has lots of features and gets good gas mileage. The average driver.

I would never even consider one of these after test driving one. The reviews are being kind.

[ThisIsChrisKim]

Originally Posted by R3d

You make some valid points but you need to remember that here in canada cars are priced differently. Here the veloster turbo isn't 21 its 26, and if you do the research you will find that the veloster turbo is a shitty sports car! and by shitty I mean shitty :
here are 2 reviews who are fair IMO ( I would be harsher lol)

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...hyundai-page-2

http://www.motorweek.org/reviews/roa...veloster_turbo

its not a question of opinion its simply a fact. Same as the fr-s is a stunning sports car, you might not like the car itself but its well made and well balanced, something you don't find in the veloster (balanced). How in hell are they selling veloster turbo's over civic si's or vw gti is beyond me (Even if I hate the vw, its still not a bad car, I just don't like it !)

3 years ago I bought a honda si for 25,999( less cuz I bargained but it was listed @) and sold it this year to a dealer for 21500 tax included witch means I got 18,500 for my car in real life! A quick search in my area for a veloster turbo 2013 used and its already down to 21k-23k plus tax at the dealer witch means they bought it for around the price I sold my car !!

I could see why someone would buy Veloster over the Si or the GTI--looks. Veloster looks cool. It's different looking. It also comes with far more equipment for the same price of a Si. And it's loads cheaper than a GTI, especially if you get the same level of equipment. It also uses regular gas. As for the sports car part--there's a huge reason it's not a great sports car. This quote is taken straight from both reviews:

Originally Posted by C&D

With the Turbo, Hyundai recognizes and celebrates the Veloster as a sporty car, not a sports car. If that sounds like damnation with faint praise, it’s not.

Originally Posted by Autoweek

Adding boost to the 2013 Veloster may not be enough to blow the Turbo to the sharp end of the sporty hatchback segment, but Hyundai certainly made a fun little car even more so, giving it the additional performance it needed to back up its sporty mission. So we mean it when we say, “Mission Accomplished.”

"Sporty" is the key word here. Again, the Veloster is not for folks like us. It's for folks who like the looks and want a well equipped car with a little sporty-ness. Hyundai never marketed it as a sports car and I don't think expectations were there for a sports car, either.

That said, the Veloster's interior is nicer than our cars. So for people where comfort is more important, it wouldn't be a bad choice to get the Veloster.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by thill

And how many 2013 TC owners are adding super chargers, turbos, new fuel lines, getting tunes, etc and also tracking the crap out of these cars in the dead of summer without adding any additional cooling? I would argue the FT86 is going to see the track and get pushed far harder than the TC will. The FT86 platform will get modded much more than the TC will, and that alone will cause more isssues/failures.

There is no doubt there have been issues with the FT86 platform. Clearly there is a DI issue that affects some owners, but I am still not convinced it is nearly as big a deal as you have made it out to be.

Toyota engines are definitely reliable but lets not forget the acceleration fiasco that Toyota has spent billions on and continues to go to court over. No car company is perfect, and Toyota is quite good at the press/PR game.

Could you please not spread misinformation? Toyota was 100% cleared of any of their vehicles experiencing unintended acceleration. By multiple sources even. It was entirely drivers' errors.

[thill]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Could you please not spread misinformation? Toyota was 100% cleared of any of their vehicles experiencing unintended acceleration. By multiple sources even. It was entirely drivers' errors.

So Toyota recalled almost 10 million vehicles for the fun of it?
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle_recalls"]2009–11 Toyota vehicle recalls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

9 million cars have been recalled to date for unintended acceleration and I believe the estimate on this is over $1B.

[rice_classic]

There are quite literally people on the road right now, driving all types of vehicles large and small who are barely cognitive enough to tie their own shoe laces not to mention do 2 things at once.

And giving stupid people the benefit of the doubt, I'd say the vast majority of drivers have absolutely no idea behind the very basic functions of a car simply out willful ignorance (aka: "I don't care"). "This pedal stops, this pedal goes and this big circular thing steers..." is about the limit of automotive knowledge most folks on the road have.

So when the whole "unintended acceleration" fiasco broke out I knew it was driver error, I said in the very beginning: "it will come to light that it's all the driver's fault". I was right. And that's sad, because people died.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by thill

9 million cars have been recalled to date for unintended acceleration and I believe the estimate on this is over $1B.

Did you not read the whole WIKI page?

On February 8, 2011, the NHTSA, in collaboration with NASA, released its findings into the investigation on the Toyota drive-by-wire throttle system. After a 10-month search, NASA and NHTSA scientists found no electronic defect in Toyota vehicles.[28] Driver error or pedal misapplication was found responsible for most of the incidents.[29] The report ended stating, "Our conclusion is Toyota's problems were mechanical, not electrical." This included sticking accelerator pedals, and pedals caught under floor mats.[30]

It's called PR. When people are dying, you start spending $$$$$$$$$ to protect your brand, your image. It turns out people were quite literally killing themselves.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB2000...592922574.html

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...or-blamed.html

Now, a report from the Wall Street Journal says that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has analyzed vehicle data and their findings are consistent, showing that at the time of the incidents, the throttle was wide open while the brakes were not applied. This suggests that drivers mis-applied the pedals. Only one case, a fatal crashing involving a runaway Lexus ES350, where the throttle became stuck because of an improperly designed floormat. Toyota immediately issued a recall for the problem.

[thill]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Did you not read the whole WIKI page?



It's called PR. When people are dying, you start spending $$$$$$$$$ to protect your brand, your image. It turns out people were quite literally killing themselves.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB2000...592922574.html

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...or-blamed.html

And none of that counters my point that Toyota has had their share of defect recalls. Every car company has defects and recalls. Subaru, Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, etc. Regal's constant BS about Subaru being unreliable and Toyota being bulletproof is nothing more than speculation. In most industry recognized quality and reliability surveys, Subaru actually ranks higher than Toyota.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by thill

And none of that counters my point that Toyota has had their share of defect recalls.

Countering that? no.. not it does not.

Just sheds some "accurate" light on the unintended acceleration recall.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by regal

I would counter that there were no Tc's sold last year where the engine failed, Toyota is just famous for selling a million engines a year that don't blow up. I think Subaru buyers have different expectations than Toyota/Scion buyers. A Subaru owner thinks nothing of a $2k head gasket replacement at 60k mi but a Toyota buyer would be like WTF.

Umm. No.

I own a 2007 Subaru Outback (2.5i, manual), and it's at 117k with no engine work aside from oil changes and a timing belt. I would have been very irritated if there was a head gasket needing replacement at 60k, but fortunately, the vast, vast majority of Subarus don't need that kind of work. Especially if we're comparing to the Tc here, try looking at Subaru's 2.0 and 2.5 NA engines in the base model Impreza, Outback, Legacy, Forester, Baja, etc. Those things go pretty much forever.

[Diode Dynamics]

On a side note, did you guys know that the entire front fender must be taken off to change a headlight bulb on the Bentley Continental GT?

Nick C.

[PR FR-S]

Originally Posted by regal

I would counter that there were no Tc's sold last year where the engine failed, Toyota is just famous for selling a million engines a year that don't blow up. I think Subaru buyers have different expectations than Toyota/Scion buyers. A Subaru owner thinks nothing of a $2k head gasket replacement at 60k mi but a Toyota buyer would be like WTF. hyundai buyers expect 100k mi then the car can go to the junkyard (cause it literally has no resale left.)

The auto segment is much more varied than people think. Not all cars made today are perfect, far from it. Toyota light vehicles set the standard for initial quality, long term durability, and resale. We Toyota buyers just expect more.

Maybe people do abuse and mod the FA20 more than other cars but even for a first year vehicle there have been an unusually large number of blown engines reported just on this forum. Lot of head/cam problems leading to complete engine failure and of course the DI problems. You literally won't find any engine failures with last year's Tc for example.

I've owned 4 Subarus, (5 if I include the FR-S) two of them were N/A and 2 were Turbos and those things are bulletproof. Never had any issues with them. Only performed maintanence as recommended by the manufacturer. Actually the main reason I got the FR-S was beacuse of the Subaru involvment with the car. I expect to get 150K miles out of this thing and not have any problems. (Also BRZ is not available in PR)

Only reason why some Subaru engines fail is beacuse the owners boost them to 30 PSI and beat the crap out of them...

[thill]

Originally Posted by PR FR-S

I've owned 4 Subarus, (5 if I include the FR-S) two of them were N/A and 2 were Turbos and those things are bulletproof. Never had any issues with them. Only performed maintanence as recommended by the manufacturer. Actually the main reason I got the FR-S was beacuse of the Subaru involvment with the car. I expect to get 150K miles out of this thing and not have any problems. (Also BRZ is not available in PR)

Only reason why some Subaru engines fail is beacuse the owners boost them to 30 PSI and beat the crap out of them...

My buddy is a big Subaru/WRX fanatic and is now on his fourth since I have known him. He mods them, tracks them, beats on them, and they have been very solid. Granted he gets rid of them when a new model is released (so well before 100K miles), but they seem pretty solid. There are always issues with every car, especially sports cars that get beat on, but Subaru typically has a solid reputation for reliability, quality, and safety.