8 Car Brands Falling Behind.....Scion on the list

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by AsianStyle

Didn't realize trim pieces affected the cars performance.

Weight = slow because racecar

90% of my decision between Scion and Subaru was because of the nav unit, extremely glad I didn't wait for second year because I despise touch screens as well.

I wanted a car, I've got a phone and a gf to tell me where to go if I don't know or can't figure it out before hand. If there existed a Toyota GT86 with all the trimmings and doodads I still would have bought the Scion as it sits now.

[thill]

Originally Posted by regal

http://www.truedelta.com/Scion-FR-S/problems-1096/2013

About the worst engine in the industry according to this places rankings, and its not all crickets if you join you can see all the complete engine failure reports. With over a year of history Consumer Reports won't be ranking the twins as high this year I'm pretty sure of that.

The problem with truedelta is that all this data is based on 38 people. And we all know how this works, the people who experience issues will be the first ones to complain as loud as they can. What about all the people who own the car and have zero issues?

[CAMBAM_6]

Originally Posted by AsianStyle

Love the Idiocracy reference



Might want to do some fact checking on that. Lexus is sold as a Lexus everywhere now. I agree more options on the FR-S would have been nice, but "watered down". Didn't realize trim pieces affected the cars performance.

Your correct about Lexus i was just making a point..lol..and i wasnt talking about performance when i said the FRS was watered down but if you wanna go there we get watered down versions performance wise all the time..for example Hondas type R's usually came in Si's in the states which is watered down in performance. There is a laundry list of other watered down trims that we didnt get like the 240sx and so on. (and by the way i personally love my FRS the way it is) Our original arguement was about turning all Toyotas sports cars into Scions and i say Hell No

[WolfpackS2k]

You know, a lot of people didn't want to buy the Supra the last 2 years it was made because it was only available with a FOUR SPEED AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION

Toyota's support for that car after it's first 1-2 years on the market was ridiculously weak, almost akin to Honda with their S2000.

[Diode Dynamics]

Scion failing? Shocking, considering how only 2/5ths of their cars are worth a second look



Aside from the FRS and Tc, you have 3 generic point A to B cars

Even this is a better lineup lol:



Nick C.

[thill]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

You know, a lot of people didn't want to buy the Supra the last 2 years it was made because it was only available with a FOUR SPEED AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION

Toyota's support for that car after it's first 1-2 years on the market was ridiculously weak, almost akin to Honda with their S2000.

I think they lost a number of enthusiasts when they went with the 4 speed auto only option on the turbo model.

[cfusionpm]

Originally Posted by thill

I think they lost a number of enthusiasts when they went with the 4 speed auto only option on the turbo model.

Those enthusiasts wouldn't have bought it anyway because it was so flippin' expensive. In the entire lifespan of the Supra's fourth generation, it sold less units than just the FR-S in 2012 alone.

The Supra is a car glorified by movies, magazines, and "tuners." A car to put on a pedestal and hang on the wall to admire. But in reality, it sold like crap because it was horrendously expensive.

[Diode Dynamics]

The Supra sold like crap because it was $60K in 1998

It was an amazing car nonetheless, one of my personal favorites

Nick C.

[mwjcyber]

Interesting page showing year to date auto sales by brand.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/auto-sales.html


Also good at seeing how crazy big our National Debt is....but that's a different discussion.

[mav1178]

One can only hope the car's sales over the model life isn't as bad as the 240SX.

(this is what was sold in the US)
Number exported sorted by year - including convertibles:
S13:
1989 - 68118 ("zenki")
1990 - 60582
1991 - 34534 (mid model refresh aka "chuki")
1992 - 27033
1993 - 21471
1994 - 1391 (convertible only)
S14:
1995 - 25114 ("zenki")
1996 - 7334
1997 - 3655 (mid model refresh aka "kouki")
1998 - 2178

The only way to know the success of the FRS/BRZ is to see how sales hold up in years 3-5, and how any "refresh" changes the sales of the car overall. The enthusiasts active on a forum make up a small percentage of people buying the cars overall, and one has to also take into consideration the type of "young people" and their financial capability to afford a $25k sports car.

The auto manufacturer has the market figured out, or so they think. We can have our fun modding the car and leave the market dissecting up to Toyota and Subaru.

Obviously this is only for North America.

-alex

[R3d]

Originally Posted by SigmaHyperion

Way to be stuck in the '90s there.

Kia and Hyundai have both been releasing vehicles with some of the best initial and long-term quality measures for quite some time now. While everyone's rankings fluctuate a lot thesedays to the tightness of the competition, Kia and Hyundai are consistently in the top third of all automakers.

Scion on the other hand, has been steadily moving down the ranks, from the very top just a few years ago, to bottoming out at DEAD LAST in the latest JDP IQS. The same one put Kia and Hyundai near the top, in the company of Porsche, Lexus, Infiniti, Audi, Acura, Mercedes, and Cadillac.

But reality is that the difference between "Best" and "Worst" thesedays is so small as to nearly be a statistical non-consideration. For example, the difference between "Best" and "Worst" in the above JDP study, was 0.8 problems per car. So, statistically speaking, a Scion at "Worst" is going to have almost 1 more problem reported in the first 90 days of ownership than a Porsche at "Best". A whole 1 problem more -- and that "problem" can be anything at all, including the most minor of complaint like a squeaking wiper.

Everybody makes a good car today. Everybody. Differences between them are all so small that automakers move from nearly the top to nearly the bottom just based on normal variation between years.

doest change the fact sitting passenger in a kia is hell and sitting passenger in a toyota or a gm feels just fine. There`s quality beyond just saying its reliable !

by the way, did you know hyundai made a car called the veloster turbo, going for around the same price as the fr-s but I think its 200-300$ cheaper AND comes with gps and all that crap included. Did you consider that car when you shopped for the fr-s ? its similar in price, has way more options and has about the same power!

P.S : I don't prefer scion, im just saying the quality in a kia or Hyundai is just that. you cant make a car $1,000 cheaper then competition give more gadgets for the same value AND be better quality. They have to cheap out on something, remember a jack of all trades is a master of none.

hyundai is the car company making the greatest improvements over the years, ill give you that. But they came from sooooo far behind that IMO there's still a long way for them to go !

[regal]

Originally Posted by thill

The problem with truedelta is that all this data is based on 38 people. And we all know how this works, the people who experience issues will be the first ones to complain as loud as they can. What about all the people who own the car and have zero issues?

I would counter that there were no Tc's sold last year where the engine failed, Toyota is just famous for selling a million engines a year that don't blow up. I think Subaru buyers have different expectations than Toyota/Scion buyers. A Subaru owner thinks nothing of a $2k head gasket replacement at 60k mi but a Toyota buyer would be like WTF. hyundai buyers expect 100k mi then the car can go to the junkyard (cause it literally has no resale left.)

The auto segment is much more varied than people think. Not all cars made today are perfect, far from it. Toyota light vehicles set the standard for initial quality, long term durability, and resale. We Toyota buyers just expect more.

Maybe people do abuse and mod the FA20 more than other cars but even for a first year vehicle there have been an unusually large number of blown engines reported just on this forum. Lot of head/cam problems leading to complete engine failure and of course the DI problems. You literally won't find any engine failures with last year's Tc for example.

[DMDominator]

Originally Posted by Diode Dynamics

Scion failing? Shocking, considering how only 2/5ths of their cars are worth a second look



Aside from the FRS and Tc, you have 3 generic point A to B cars

Nick C.

Love how the econoboxes are tucked away in the back, lol. Seems like Scion themselves aren't very fond of the xB, xD and iQ. If Toyota would get even one more desirable car in the Scion lineup it would be decent enough. The Corolla Furia concept would have made a great Scion sedan.

[ThisIsChrisKim]

Originally Posted by R3d

doest change the fact sitting passenger in a kia is hell and sitting passenger in a toyota or a gm feels just fine. There`s quality beyond just saying its reliable !

by the way, did you know hyundai made a car called the veloster turbo, going for around the same price as the fr-s but I think its 200-300$ cheaper AND comes with gps and all that crap included. Did you consider that car when you shopped for the fr-s ? its similar in price, has way more options and has about the same power!

P.S : I don't prefer scion, im just saying the quality in a kia or Hyundai is just that. you cant make a car $1,000 cheaper then competition give more gadgets for the same value AND be better quality. They have to cheap out on something, remember a jack of all trades is a master of none.

hyundai is the car company making the greatest improvements over the years, ill give you that. But they came from sooooo far behind that IMO there's still a long way for them to go !

I don't own a Hyundai and I'm not a huge fan, but saying that Hyundai is making terrible cars couldn't be further from the truth. Their new cars are really nice, and the Elentra and Sonata, particularly the interior, are far superior in quality and materials than the Corolla and Camry, respectively. Not to mention their exterior design language is more captivating and interesting than what Toyota has done for the past decade. They also backup their sales with an unbeatable warranty. You don't warranty your product for that long without knowing that your product will hold up over time--otherwise, they would just be eating costs for repairs.

Veloster turbo isn't a FR-S/BRZ competitor. It's FWD and rides on the Elantra platform. It's also $24k fully loaded with everything. $21k and it's well equipped. It's a faster version of a cool and unique car. A hot hatch it is not. If anything, it competes against a Civic Si and whatever tiny market that car competes in (not the hot hatch market since they're both down on power).

I know several people who own a Hyundai, a Sonata (sister), Veloster (colleague), and Elantra (friend), and all three plan on buying another Hyundai after their current ones are ready to be replaced.

Sure, Hyundai isn't targeting the enthusiast (aka us), but if they do decide to target us at some point, I have a feeling they'll make something that's compelling. Hell, it took Toyota/Subaru 10+ years to come out with the twins. How long till another company comes out with a competitor?