Is going all catless on a na fa20 motor such a good idea?

[Astroboy]

Originally Posted by djliquidsteele

To this guy and others like him, I get a real nice burble at 2400 rpm in 6th at 55. I try to hit it alot because it sounds so nice. Don't confuse loud with rasp.

I'm catless with a muffler delete. I love it. LOVE IT!!! Just because some crappy ass designed shit makes you get rasp, doesn't mean all catless stuff is going to cause rasp.

I try to make a rule, never speak in absolutes (And yes, I realize the irony in my statement as well as the joke within.)

Post a vid

[Noob4Life]

Originally Posted by Astroboy

Post a vid

Dont tell him that my ears cant stand to hear another one lol the first couple vids were bad enough.

Edit: wrong thread, I was referring to the videos posted in the "UEL Headers and Buddy Spec 2 exhaust" thread. Terrible terrible

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[Argento_FR-S]

93 octane and too poor to afford dyno time. But downshifting through corners isn't quite as necessary as it used to be.

[loogs]

im running no cats and i love the sound. its even a little raspy but it sounds meaner and better than anything with cats. and when im cruising highway speeds, there is no drone or rasp. love it

if you keep the cats, your car will sound just like every other car regardless of which exhaust you get. with the exception of the perrin , maybe.

[arghx7]

Originally Posted by sierra

You may well be correct that a HF cat increases emissions but drastically?
Perhaps if it's placed too far from the headers?

Is a single high flow cat cleaner than no cat at all? Of course. Very much so. Considering how much it hurts emissions versus a stock setup, does it give you some kind of moral high ground on someone who removed them completely? Well we can debate about that. I'd argue no. Have I run both? Yes I have.

I doubt that difference is anything like the difference for a HF cat, correctly positioned, to catless but if you have info to back that up I would be very interested?

I'm not allowed to show any data. I suppose you're stuck believing a guy on the internet. Let's just say that, there's two cats on the FA20 for a reason. The exhaust is restrictive in certain places for a reason. The cats are positioned where they are for a reason. Most emissions on a vehicle occur in the first 20 seconds or so after startup, especially when it's cold out. When you remove precious metal loading or move the cats, you are taking 10, twenty, maybe even 100 times more emissions in an actual drive cycle. The HC and CO conversion efficiency are basically 0 when the cat is cold.

There is no such thing as a correctly positioned high flow cat. There's nowhere you can put an aftermarket high flow cat that is the correct position. You could put it in the stock location, and the exhaust flow still won't be distributed properly to light off at the same level as stock. It will heat up slowly, it will heat up unevenly, and it will spew out emissions during that whole elongated process. Heck it's easy enough for completely stock cars to fail emissions tests after they've been in service. And I mean real EPA emissions tests with a real drive cycle, not some tailpipe sniffer at the gas station somewhere in Oakland CA. The equipment costs millions of dollars and needs a dedicated staff to maintain.

For the record I still have both stock cats. The only exhaust mod is an axleback but I do have a HF catted downpipe + overpipe I haven't fitted yet.
I'm not trying to shame anyone but I am trying to point out that there's a good reason for emission control equipment. Some works well, some is questionable and you have to wonder at the rules that spawn them?
For what they cost and the brilliant job they do, catalytic converters make sense.

Well the average person just doesn't want their car to smell bad, and they really could give a damn beyond that. And I totally understand that point of view and I share it for the most part. When you get rid of the stock cats, or accelerate their degradation with an aftermarket tune, you are taking 2013 emissions level and potentially putting it back to 1970s levels. I can't give you exact numbers, but I've done my share of emissions work.

Originally Posted by sierra

I'm reading up on this and as long as the HF cat is built to the correct standard and placed close enough to the headers it's going to do a similar job to the stock cat/s.

Everyone has followed cars with the cats deleted and it's that bad you either have to overtake or drop back a long way if you don't hit the recirculate and windows fast enough.

Again, it will take away the smell. And that's all most anyone cares about, and that's fine. If you're in some steady state condition (like a tailpipe sniffer at an emissions station), they probably will be close to equal in effectiveness. The difference in conversion efficiency on an actual drive cycle is huge though. Why do you think stock cats cost so much money?

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

Don't forget about all the crap that comes out the back when over-fuelling to keep the cat cool, too.

Well yeah, but that keeps the cat from accelerated aging which would hurt emissions. The most advanced engines in production today use very little over-fueling due to things like a water-cooled exhaust manifold.

[Captain Insano]

Originally Posted by sierra

Which states allow you to take a near new car, remove the emission control equipment and drive it legally?

Illinois in certain parts. I live in central IL. We have no emissions or safety checks here.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed like the first post was more curious about flow characteristics and performance and not at all about emissions and the state of the global environment due to running catted or catless on our vehicles.

Originally Posted by Astroboy

I heard some motors need restriction in order to keep its power consistent. And eliminating some of these restrictions may even cause a decrease in power... Im no car genius but I'm assuming that the only way to get the best out of it is to switch to e85.. so what are your thoughts on the fa20 motor with nothing but 2.5 straight pipes.

I would also like to know if maybe even a tune for 93 oct would help...

And like I said before, I'm no car genius, that's why I'm asking this.

[arghx7]

The environmental side discussion comes into play because there's so little horsepower gain from completely removing all catalytic converters relative to keeping at least one aftermarket cat. Obviously it's not some single turbo Supra where every bit of exhaust restriction can have a huge effect.

[Captain Insano]

Originally Posted by arghx7

The environmental side discussion comes into play because there's so little horsepower gain from completely removing all catalytic converters relative to keeping at least one aftermarket cat. Obviously it's not some single turbo Supra where every bit of exhaust restriction can have a huge effect.

There definitely is gain. Tuners have said so. Whether 2-5 hp or that small amount is worth the removal of all the cats is up to the person owning the car, no? If they want performance that really is all that needs to be said about it. None of the BS about theoretically killing the world by removing your cats.

OK, duly noted on the theoretical harm to environment if the cats are removed. Let's move on. Certainly no need for name calling if people are running catless.

Originally Posted by SkAsphalt

Are you catless? If so, you are all douches

[sierra]

Originally Posted by jamesm

florida has no emissions laws at all and is probably one of the cleanest places in the country (at least in terms of air quality). we don't stuff millions people into a few-square-mile valley like they do in CA. different places require different solutions to different problems.

There are 2 reasons you have clean air compared to the rest of the country.
Firstly the new cars already have emission standards that advanced countries demand. Secondly you live on a peninsula where the prevailing winds clear the shit away that the red necks insist on producing.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by sierra

There are 2 reasons you have clean air compared to the rest of the country.
Firstly the new cars already have emission standards that advanced countries demand. Secondly you live on a peninsula where the prevailing winds clear the shit away that the red necks insist on producing.

Exactly. That's why it sucks that we have to hobble our cars to solve a problem we don't have, as I said before. I wish cars were like bikes where they make a 49-state version separate from the gimped Cali model. Oh well... that's what the aftermarket is for

[sierra]

Originally Posted by I1

No, it's not truly amazing at all. It's called economics. California has the strictest emissions laws since they're shooting for a socialist utopia, so vehicle manufacturers build to the strictest common denominator since it makes good business sense to do that than have 50 different builds, one for each state. Mass production, friend. So, with that in mind, why would someone like myself in Minnesota with no emissions laws to worry about be forced into sticking with those emission controls?

It looks like you're in Australia, so I'll try to keep it basic without sounding like a snob or douche or anything. We're a collection of states with each state regulating itself when dealing with business that is conducted in-state, while the federal government has ultimate jurisdiction to regulate business that happens between states. So if I live in Minnesota, and buy from a Minnesotan dealership, the feds don't get a say in the emission controls I have to use in my state. Now, it gets a little dicey when talking about federal gas mileage requirements for a car company, but that stuff still only pertains to allowing the distribution/sale of the vehicle, not the continued use of it.

I hope that somewhat clears things up as to American freedoms. Also, if you're worried about emissions and saving the planet, push for a switch to nukes or go bother China. Either way, good luck in your adventures, and quit trying to rain on other people's parade if they want to ditch their cats.

According to this all the states come under the EPA.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_emission_standards"]United States emission standards - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

It looks like you're in Australia, so I'll try to keep it basic without sounding like a snob or douche or anything.

I've seen the programs of you guys in the Everglades catching the crocs and believe me you don't look like snobs and i'll have no trouble with your complicated version.

[Noob4Life]

Originally Posted by sierra

According to this all the states come under the EPA.

United States emission standards - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It looks like you're in Australia, so I'll try to keep it basic without sounding like a snob or douche or anything.

I've seen the programs of you guys in the Everglades catching the crocs and believe me you don't look like snobs and i'll have no trouble with your complicated version.

I like that article lol if CA laws go national here in the states there's going to be a LOT more CARB approved modifications released in the future. Plus I won't have to listen to people talk crap about how bad CA is (which it is)

[sierra]

Originally Posted by Noob4Life

I like that article lol if CA laws go national here in the states there's going to be a LOT more CARB approved modifications released in the future. Plus I won't have to listen to people talk crap about how bad CA is (which it is)

If one of the crock hunters in Florida decides to visit his hippy cousin in California, does he have to choose his route carefully and hire a compliant car at the border? Seriously!

[Noob4Life]

No smog is only for cali registered vehicles. Doesnt apply to vehicles registered outside of cali. If somebody moves to cali from florida he has 1 year to get the car smog inspected and registered in cali.

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