Video: HKS 86 drift car + first 86/FR-S/BRZ dyno = 170 rwhp!!!

[Twisty]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

200hp is the advertised HP at the Motor.

170whp is the power at the wheels. From the motor to the wheels, rotating parts and transmission you will lose power. So, the 170whp is a good sign that Toyota/Subaru did deliver on their advertised hp number.

That brings up an interesting point. I wonder why car companies advertise horsepower at the engine rather than at the wheels? It is confusing to people since it isn't actually power to the ground. It seems like power at the wheels would be a more meaningful number.

[Tainen]

Originally Posted by Twisty

That brings up an interesting point. I wonder why car companies advertise horsepower at the engine rather than at the wheels? It is confusing to people since it isn't actually power to the ground. It seems like power at the wheels would be a more meaningful number.

HP Sells cars.

it's all marketing.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Twisty

That brings up an interesting point. I wonder why car companies advertise horsepower at the engine rather than at the wheels? It is confusing to people since it isn't actually power to the ground. It seems like power at the wheels would be a more meaningful number.

Cuz WHP always changes (due to weather temp, air, humid, & etc) vs HP is a room protected from most of stuff & 99% always make bout same HP

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Twisty

That brings up an interesting point. I wonder why car companies advertise horsepower at the engine rather than at the wheels? It is confusing to people since it isn't actually power to the ground. It seems like power at the wheels would be a more meaningful number.

Originally Posted by Tainen

HP Sells cars.

it's all marketing.

engine power is measured in controlled environments that few street dyno shops have, and most don't even care about.

wheel dynos are affected by gear ratios and load ratings. When i was testing my stock VW Golf, they couldn't do the run in 4th gear because the car couldn't load the dyno properly, so i did a run in 3rd gear.

I made 104HP in 3rd gear, and another car made 170hp in 4th gear, do you think it's fair to compare the two?


while HP sells cars, the reason HP sells cars is because of consumers, not the manufacturers. They just tell you a factually proven number, and YOU go gaga over it.

So the fault is not with them.

Personally, i think the best indicator of a car's performance is lap-times at your local proving grounds. 200HP or 500, if you can beat that Lotus Elise by 1 second then you know where you stand

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Twisty

That brings up an interesting point. I wonder why car companies advertise horsepower at the engine rather than at the wheels? It is confusing to people since it isn't actually power to the ground. It seems like power at the wheels would be a more meaningful number.

This is for a multitude of reasons. The primary one, however, is accountability.

SAE J1349 power ratings are done under a very strict scientific standard. It's a voluntary rating, however it basically forces all manufacturers to abide by it or risk being raked over the coals for false advertising [if a non-compliant manufacturer decides to advertise power too high, like the class-action lawsuit against Ford for the 1999 Mustang Cobra being underpowered versus its advertised rating].

SAE J1349 is repeatable and consistent. On the flipside, most "tuner shops" that have various chassis dynos are rarely if ever calibrated to any standard. Allowing the customer to "certify" their car with uncalibrated equipment is absurd. Furthermore, the OEM cannot be held responsible for a vehicle once it's been released to the wild. Who knows what sabotage [intentional or ignorant] the customer took on his car to obtain lower-than-expected peak power figures. Using the wrong oil, poor break-in, keeping the hand-brake on, improper airflow, sand in the gearbox, etc., are all things outside the control of a proper scientific test in a laboratory.

Chassis dynos are used by OEM's, but not to obtain certified power data.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by chessplaya2010

thanks dragonitti and 7thgear

No problem Chess. Even if it was a basic question, its still a far cry from the "no push-start, dual climate control...etc", whining that's been going around on the forum.

Originally Posted by 7thgear

+1

if what they say about this car's handling is true, (ie, better than a Porsche Caymen, assuming equal tires),

then this "mere" 200HP is going to be a godsend, you'll be able to stay on the gas in corner where something like an STi would have trouble trying to stay in shape.



having said that, a high horse power is necessary to break through air resistance to achive a high top speed. In that regard, the HP is a hurdle...

but, only if you race at premier race tracks, like Laguna Seca (going UP the hill before the cork-screw, for instance), or Mosport International Raceway (the ridiculously long back stretch that allows drivers of cars below 150-200 HP to have a cigarette while reading two chapters from Tom Sawyer)

but then again, if you're good enough maybe your 20-30km/h higher entrance speed into every corner will buy you just enough time to fight back those corvettes before you start going downhill again

Everyone who complains about the power....generally are not the ones who have experienced being able to push a slow car faster than a slow guy pushing a faster car slower.

Much MUCH more fun to go fast in a slow car, than it is to go slower in a faster car.

[WingsofWar]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Welcome to boxer engine... Where top end drop lol but I think that problem should be solved w minor ecu reflash (like my RS)

lol yeah we have the same engine (EJ251) on my daily.

but still comparing too a more accurately matched EJ204 vs FA20 based on our assumptions.

EJ204 (AVCS)
200hp @ 6500rpm / Redline @ 7000rpm

FA20 (DAVCS & D4S)
200hp @ 6250rpm / Redline @ 7500rpm

.......what the hell.....im so confused

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by WingsofWar

lol yeah we have the same engine (EJ251) on my daily.

but still comparing too a more accurately matched EJ204 vs FA20 based on our assumptions.

EJ204 (AVCS)
200hp @ 6500rpm / Redline @ 7000rpm

FA20 (DAVCS & D4S)
200hp @ 6250rpm / Redline @ 7500rpm

.......what the hell.....im so confused

EJ204 was pretty much one night thing w hot sexy model. LMAO

Most of that EJ204 juice was coming from ECU setup. I think Subie did awesome job on that... but at the same time, it's totally a bitch to reflash. Unless you wanna do Stand Alone, it's a waste reflashing that ECU (of course, I stand to be corrected).

vs FA20 ECU isn't highly tuned like EJ204 ECU... ZN6/ZC6 ECU are there for standard/basic... All other aftermarket company can reflash it to make more HP & fix few drops in the graph, so there's a hope for that top end drop.

[Homemade WRX]

Originally Posted by nrclptcnsmniak

we have forgotten what this car is all about? then you go on and talk about an STI variant with 300 + hp and turbo charged? when its been said time and time again that this will not happen! I think you sir have forgotten what this car is about. I for one couldnt care less about the hp number.

A turbo variant is coming...or so 'my good inside man' has leaked to me. He's also the same one that knew and told me about the material change in the 08+ 79mm cranks...and I'm not talking about nitriding.

Originally Posted by 7thgear

anyone who has ever decided to modify a Subaru engine on a budget ended up paying dearly for it.

anyone who claims to have a reliably built high power Subaru engine on a budget has previously destroyed a few

anyone who claims to have a high power (450whp++) Subaru engine that's last them for a very long time babies it and has never seen a 20-30 minute track session at 100%, doing 2 Gs in a corner, 10 times a year.

ask any humble subaru racer who attempted to cheap out in their engine build and drove it hard at the track, and they will tell you they had problems

ask any rally engine builder shop how long performance rally engines last that make "stupid" amounts of power and they'll tell you how often subaru engines fail, even the new ones.

Completely agreed!
The lesson is don't cheap out and bulletproof it and you won't have internally caused (relative to engine) issues...unless you are 'that' point.

Then expect scheduled rebuilds depending on usage.

Originally Posted by DanPO

Quote: " Last time I checked blowing passed old men in their mid-life crisis expensive sports cars is not joy. If they want to race you, let them have their moment, they probably desperately need it more than you. Your moment of joy will come on the next corner."

I agree. You are right.

I enjoy passing them through on ramps with my 8000 lb turbo diesel after they jumped me at the light and cut me off

^^true story about a middle aged man in his C6...then he punched it on the interstate and I started laughing.

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Cuz WHP always changes (due to weather
temp, air, humid, & etc) vs HP is a room protected from most of stuff & 99% always make bout same HP

SAE corrections. Most all dynos have a 'weather box' for correction factors. The WHP isn't the issue at all. We do have very tight tolerances/conditions/restrictions at which we run our engines.

With that being said, I'm still hunting 125 hp/L on pump without a lopey idle.

[wcbjr]

Originally Posted by Homemade WRX

A turbo variant is coming...or so 'my good inside man' has leaked to me. He's also the same one that knew and told me about the material change in the 08+ 79mm cranks...and I'm not talking about nitriding.

It was two friggin' years before the refresh on the bugeye WRX to go to 2.5L. I can only assume the same for the jump to FI.

[WingsofWar]

lol mad libs time!

anyone who has ever decided to modify a RX7 engine on a budget ended up paying dearly for it.

anyone who claims to have a reliably built high power 13b engine on a budget has previously destroyed a lot.

anyone who claims to have a high power (450whp++) Rx7 engine that's last them for a very long time; babies it, and has never seen a 20-30 minute track session at 100%, doing 2 Gs in a corner, 10 times a year.

ask any humble Rx7 racer who attempted to cheap out in their engine build and drove it hard at the track, and they will tell you they had problems

ask any Rotary engine builder shop how long performance Rotary engines last that make "stupid" amounts of power and they'll tell you how often Rx7 engines fail, even the new ones.

[SUB-FT86]

Lol!!!

[Tainen]

Originally Posted by wcbjr

It was two friggin' years before the refresh on the bugeye WRX to go to 2.5L. I can only assume the same for the jump to FI.

the WRX was 2.0 until 2006. The WRX was bugeye in 02 and 03, pignose in 04-05, then the 2006 hawkeye went 2.5 liter.

[wcbjr]

Originally Posted by Tainen

the WRX was 2.0 until 2006. The WRX was bugeye in 02 and 03, pignose in 04-05, then the 2006 hawkeye went 2.5 liter.

Ah damn, forgot. I've been away from Nasioc too long.