Unichip map downloads and tuning

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

You can tune for the unichip that has always been an option. Best part is someone can post it online and let all of us download it as well. BUT I heard someone else was trying to tune for e85 for the unichip and ran into issues. So who knows... I know I have waited for almost 10 months. Can't hurt to wait some more.

I know you can tune with it, I have talked to Jack about doing just that and I am still considering it as an option to pursue. (I currently tune using HP Tuners and Megasquirt Systems using Tuner Studio)

However the Unichip is a little different in the way it accomplishes this from my talks with Jack. I really like what they offer but there are some things I would like to see added to its abilities from my talks with Jack as well.

At this point there are a few reasons E85 could cause an issue (I have done quite a bit of E85 Conversion Tuning myself to pull this from, My Vette runs E85 normally unless making a long cruise) and thats going beyond the ability of the Factory ECU to handle say fueling demand or signal level, or that the person who attempted to make an E85 tune did not have access to a dyno and realized you can pump up the timing rather far and still not knock yet pass Means Based timing and start loosing power.

This is where one of my concerns with the Unichip comes in, the tuning software it includes does not log Knock, your relying on an OBDII reader to do that so you can't get a map of exactly where it happens in each cell without possibly being on a Dyno holding it in each as it happens which if anyone has tuned is very hard to accomplish. (I can provide pictures for reference if this is confusing, some many not be familiar with this)

Either way while it can be accomplished and it seems those selling kits are not mentioning changing the fuel pump or injectors with N/A applications to meet the extra 30% or so more fuel that E85 requires then the hold up, as Jack has mentioned sounds more like something else.
He said it was a legality issue, so again if we can release them from any responsibility to gain access to such files how many would be interested in doing so and truly know the way E85 works and what can happen? I know I would be willing too.

[neutron256]

Originally Posted by Cross

Maybe I did miss a post this is a 45 page long thread but it is an issue especially at this mark.

However this is an aftermarket tuner at the end of the day regardless of it being considered a piggy back or flash tuner the result is the same. The risks are also the same, you can destroy your vehicle should you choose to use this device on your vehicle and load the wrong tune etc.

I have yet to see a tuner that doesn't warn of this upfront, hell even most shops now a days make you sign such statements before taking your car in just for repairs let alone a performance shop.

If we need to sign a release I doubt anyone would complain about it, or if we need to pay more for access to those files and buy the software that allows us to make changes again many would do that.

At the end of the day it was always promised and no one else has an issue providing it that's where the hang up comes along. If something needs to be done legally to release liability then so be it. But the lack of this ability now is a let down for many.

My post has been very professional I am not blaming Unichip nor Jack just trying to find a solution. Unichip has a chance to offer everyone a product at a much lower cost that puts them in a very good position. The more it can do the more appealing it becomes.

I don't think a signed relase matters. They could be fined simply for selling it as a way to run e85 on a vehicle not designed for it. If I sell you a bomb and you use it, a signed release isn't going to keep me out of trouble for making the bomb in the first place.

Unichip is capable of doing it, and you could always go to a local unichip tuner and see if they will help you. Or get a unichip tuner license yourself they aren't cheap, but way less expensive then say an Ecutek tuning license. Of course you also need to know what you're doing which takes a lot of learning.

I got my tuning license through Unichp Wholesale for a specific project I'm working on. Even though I'm not planing on getting into tuning they provide some really great training materials which have tought me tons about tuning concepts. It's a really cool system and this basic setup on our cars is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what it can do.

[Sojhinn]

Thanks for the heads up on the e85 stuff. I learned some stuff there. As for waiving the rights. I have no issue with that as well. I've been dying to run e85 for a while now, and I have a station literally around the corner from me.

As for the abilities that are to be added. It always seemed that Jack has stated anything COULD be added to the system. Question is if the unichips we have are capable of doing what it needs to do.

Cross is there a way you could come up with a unichip tune for e85? I have access to a dyno at my school (Im a physics teacher), but I have no idea how to tune. I'd be willing to help any way you want.

Originally Posted by Cross

I know you can tune with it, I have talked to Jack about doing just that and I am still considering it as an option to pursue. (I currently tune using HP Tuners and Megasquirt Systems using Tuner Studio)

However the Unichip is a little different in the way it accomplishes this from my talks with Jack. I really like what they offer but there are some things I would like to see added to its abilities from my talks with Jack as well.

At this point there are a few reasons E85 could cause an issue (I have done quite a bit of E85 Conversion Tuning myself to pull this from, My Vette runs E85 normally unless making a long cruise) and thats going beyond the ability of the Factory ECU to handle say fueling demand or signal level, or that the person who attempted to make an E85 tune did not have access to a dyno and realized you can pump up the timing rather far and still not knock yet pass Means Based timing and start loosing power.

This is where one of my concerns with the Unichip comes in, the tuning software it includes does not log Knock, your relying on an OBDII reader to do that so you can't get a map of exactly where it happens in each cell without possibly being on a Dyno holding it in each as it happens which if anyone has tuned is very hard to accomplish. (I can provide pictures for reference if this is confusing, some many not be familiar with this)

Either way while it can be accomplished and it seem those selling kits are not mentioning changing the fuel pump or injectors with N/A applications to meet the extra 30% or so more fuel that E85 requires then the hold up, as Jack has mentioned sounds more like something else.
He said it was a legality issue, so again if we can release them from any responsibility to gain access to such files how many would be interested in doing so and truly know the way E85 works and what can happen? I know I would be willing too.

[Sojhinn]

AHH Thats why your name looks familiar! Hows the open source electric turbo coming?

Originally Posted by neutron256

I don't think a signed relase matters. They could be fined simply for selling it as a way to run e85 on a vehicle not designed for it. If I sell you a bomb and you use it, a signed release isn't going to keep me out of trouble for making the bomb in the first place.

Unichip is capable of doing it, and you could always go to a local unichip tuner and see if they will help you. Or get a unichip tuner license yourself they aren't cheap, but way less expensive then say an Ecutek tuning license. Of course you also need to know what you're doing which takes a lot of learning.

I got my tuning license through Unichp Wholesale for a specific project I'm working on. Even though I'm not planing on getting into tuning they provide some really great training materials which have tought me tons about tuning concepts. It's a really cool system and this basic setup on our cars is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what it can do.

[neutron256]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

AHH Thats why your name looks familiar! Hows the open source electric turbo coming?

Good, I'm hoping to get into the machine shop this weekend to finish the last parts of the compressor. I think unichip is going to work great for controlling the systems and I've already got my test maps built and I'm working on modifying the harness.

For those not familiar with this I'm building an electric supercharger and using the Unichip to control it.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41148

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

Thanks for the heads up on the e85 stuff. I learned some stuff there. As for waiving the rights. I have no issue with that as well. I've been dying to run e85 for a while now, and I have a station literally around the corner from me.

As for the abilities that are to be added. It always seemed that Jack has stated anything COULD be added to the system. Question is if the unichips we have are capable of doing what it needs to do.

Cross is there a way you could come up with a unichip tune for e85? I have access to a dyno at my school (Im a physics teacher), but I have no idea how to tune. I'd be willing to help any way you want.

I think I can, I just need to see the software hell just screen shots to see how it logs would give me a base line of what to expect. Like here let me show you what a log screen in HP Tuners looks like:


I wanted one that showed the table you see on the right. That table shows cell's the car has or is driving in. Now above that are options for up to 10+ tables all logging different things like Fuel Trims, Timing, Knock, AFR vs MAF etc etc etc. With those I can take what the computer see's, what I tell it to do in real time and what an outside source like my wideband and put the figures together. I can also tell it to compare the figures the car's ECU and Factory O2's see compared to my Wideband in the same cells.

That system tunes most GM's, Ford and Dodge vehicles. Comes with 10 credits (Costs 2 per vehicle and each credit is 49.99), the cable and software (which is free to DL so you can see what it looks like before owning it, you just can't save any edits you make or flash a tune) and access top a huge forum offering support all for less than 600.00. So to me when I saw the ECUTek and remembered them from NASOC I was blown away at the cost.

The Unichip can be that gap in between and it seems to be a great quality product. But getting your hands on the information needed to make the decision to jump in or not... that's a little harder and I understand why for them but for me I need to know what to expect and well I don't.
However if its anything like Megasquirt (which can also be used as a piggyback or full stand alone) or HP Tuners then yes I can build an E85 tune with some dyno and driving time. I would also share it so long as it did not upset Jack.

[Sojhinn]

Whats the cost for the tuning software. If you are willing to share. Im willing to share too, maybe we can do a group buy or something.

[neutron256]

Originally Posted by Cross

I think I can, I just need to see the software hell just screen shots to see how it logs would give me a base line of what to expect. Like here let me show you what a log screen in HP Tuners looks like:


I wanted one that showed the table you see on the right. That table shows cell's the car has or is driving in. Now above that are options for up to 10+ tables all logging different things like Fuel Trims, Timing, Knock, AFR vs MAF etc etc etc. With those I can take what the computer see's, what I tell it to do in real time and what an outside source like my wideband and put the figures together. I can also tell it to compare the figures the car's ECU and Factory O2's see compared to my Wideband in the same cells.

That system tunes most GM's, Ford and Dodge vehicles. Comes with 10 credits (Costs 2 per vehicle and each credit is 49.99), the cable and software (which is free to DL so you can see what it looks like before owning it, you just can't save any edits you make or flash a tune) and access top a huge forum offering support all for less than 600.00. So to me when I saw the ECUTek and remembered them from NASOC I was blown away at the cost.

The Unichip can be that gap in between and it seems to be a great quality product. But getting your hands on the information needed to make the decision to jump in or not... that's a little harder and I understand why for them but for me I need to know what to expect and well I don't.
However if its anything like Megasquirt (which can also be used as a piggyback or full stand alone) or HP Tuners then yes I can build an E85 tune with some dyno and driving time. I would also share it so long as it did not upset Jack.

With the unichip tuning software you can only see the sensors unichip is connected to. For our setup that's Crank Position, Throttle Position, and MAF. If you want any additional information you'll need something that connects to OBD. I personally am using Techstream since that gives me easy access and logging of all the sensors.

The maps just show how much the fuel/timing are being adjusted. So if the map shows all zeros then its just the stock tune. Unichip actually has a very handy way of doing real time tuning using pots that they can adjust to get and then send that adjustment to your map. Of course you can always manual make corrections to the map.

[neutron256]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

Whats the cost for the tuning software. If you are willing to share. Im willing to share too, maybe we can do a group buy or something.

$290 for just the software.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by neutron256

With the unichip tuning software you can only see the sensors unichip is connected to. For our setup that's Crank Position, Throttle Position, and MAF. If you want any additional information you'll need something that connects to OBD. I personally am using Techstream since that gives me easy access and logging of all the sensors.

The maps just show how much the fuel/timing are being adjusted. So if the map shows all zeros then its just the stock tune. Unichip actually has a very handy way of doing real time tuning using pots that they can adjust to get and then send that adjustment to your map. Of course you can always manual make corrections to the map.

Jack and I spoke about the costs and that the obvious of setting everything to 0 meant the factory tune was unaffected. That was fine but thats always why I brought up that I was surprised the Unichip does not connect to or log knock, your not looking to change it but imagine your table there, showing you the active cells your hitting while driving and then another table of the same values showing you when the knock sensor spikes above the level that would signal knock is occurring and telling you even if just the voltage so you can tell how much. Or even further imagine monitoring the cam timing so when that knock occurs you can also see how much timing the computer pulled.

The Unichip method with POTS is interesting but going cell by cell under load is something I am not sure your familiar with. Have you ever tried to hold a 3rd gear pull at 3100 RPM exactly? N/A or Boosted its hard to do and you have to do that throughout the range and you certainly don't want to hold it knocking.

Now while the Unichip will allow for you to be within the factory safety levels once you add boost it changes everything and the first slip could be the last slip for that motor.

I do thank you for showing me that table that makes sense and was what I expected to see. What I really want to see is what it looks like while driving and logging. As trying to put two tables together by two different companies can be like trying to solve a jigsaw puzzle using another puzzle all together.

Originally Posted by neutron256

$290 for just the software.

And 595 for the software with the POTS, Tech Support etc.

[Sojhinn]

When you talked to Jack were there plans to add knock sensor?

Originally Posted by Cross

Jack and I spoke about the costs and that the obvious of setting everything to 0 meant the factory tune was unaffected. That was fine but thats always why I brought up that I was surprised the Unichip does not connect to or log knock, your not looking to change it but imagine your table there, showing you the active cells your hitting while driving and then another table of the same values showing you when the knock sensor spikes above the level that would signal knock is occurring and telling you even if just the voltage so you can tell how much. Or even further imagine monitoring the cam timing so when that knock occurs you can also see how much timing the computer pulled.

The Unichip method with POTS is interesting but going cell by cell under load is something I am not sure your familiar with. Have you ever tried to hold a 3rd gear pull at 3100 RPM exactly? N/A or Boosted its hard to do and you have to do that throughout the range and you certainly don't want to hold it knocking.

Now while the Unichip will allow for you to be within the factory safety levels once you add boost it changes everything and the first slip could be the last slip for that motor.

I do thank you for showing me that table that makes sense and was what I expected to see. What I really want to see is what it looks like while driving and logging. As trying to put two tables together by two different companies can be like trying to solve a jigsaw puzzle using another puzzle all together.



And 595 for the software with the POTS, Tech Support etc.

[neutron256]

Originally Posted by Cross

Jack and I spoke about the costs and that the obvious of setting everything to 0 meant the factory tune was unaffected. That was fine but thats always why I brought up that I was surprised the Unichip does not connect to or log knock, your not looking to change it but imagine your table there, showing you the active cells your hitting while driving and then another table of the same values showing you when the knock sensor spikes above the level that would signal knock is occurring and telling you even if just the voltage so you can tell how much. Or even further imagine monitoring the cam timing so when that knock occurs you can also see how much timing the computer pulled.

The Unichip method with POTS is interesting but going cell by cell under load is something I am not sure your familiar with. Have you ever tried to hold a 3rd gear pull at 3100 RPM exactly? N/A or Boosted its hard to do and you have to do that throughout the range and you certainly don't want to hold it knocking.

Now while the Unichip will allow for you to be within the factory safety levels once you add boost it changes everything and the first slip could be the last slip for that motor.

I do thank you for showing me that table that makes sense and was what I expected to see. What I really want to see is what it looks like while driving and logging. As trying to put two tables together by two different companies can be like trying to solve a jigsaw puzzle using another puzzle all together.



And 595 for the software with the POTS, Tech Support etc.

Well as I said my goal is not to become a tuner. I just got the tuning license so I could create maps to control the electric supercharger I'm building, and possibly make some minor adjustments to the tune to get better performance when the e-charger is running.

Unichip actually make a big point that trying to tune every single cell is probably a wast of time. Tune a few specific load/RPM site, have the map autofill between those sites and then check for areas (torque dip) that need specific attention.

As for additional sensors it would be nice if they were all available and more could be wired in but it's probably not worth it. I'm happy to use a separate OBDII reader that can give me even more data like short/long term knock correction the ECU may be doing hiding issues with your tune.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

When you talked to Jack were there plans to add knock sensor?

From my talks so far I got that we could add a Wideband keeping the Voltage between 0v-5v. However on the Knock Sensor it didn't seem like it. He spoke of it just logging voltage which is another reason I would like to see a log run or video actually of just how it looks. I can turn the data into something I can use even if I have to write a program to do so... I would rather not and it just be an additional table like HP Tuners or Tuner Studio but whatever it takes.

[Cross]

Originally Posted by neutron256

Well as I said my goal is not to become a tuner. I just got the tuning license so I could create maps to control the electric supercharger I'm building, and possibly make some minor adjustments to the tune to get better performance when the e-charger is running.

Unichip actually make a big point that trying to tune every single cell is probably a wast of time. Tune a few specific load/RPM site, have the map autofill between those sites and then check for areas (torque dip) that need specific attention.

As for additional sensors it would be nice if they were all available and more could be wired in but it's probably not worth it. I'm happy to use a separate OBDII reader that can give me even more data like short/long term knock correction the ECU may be doing hiding issues with your tune.

Your happy because you have not done it any other way, both Tuner Studio and HP Tuners are free to download. Grab HP Tuners I will send you a a few log files (They are small under 5mb) and you can see all the data you can look at logging.

Roughing in fields is a great way but think about this, are you familiar with how using boost works? You have a 12.5:1 compression motor way above the factory level of compression for adding boost and for one important reason, knock when boosting destroys a motor. They stay between 8-9:1 for a reason its safer.
Now you can do it obviously but doing it with E85 is safer and gives better results anyway with its ability to cool the intake charge and resist knock.

If you set everything to 0 and boost the motor stock the factory ECU catching you before you hurt something is a BIG gamble. Jack even mentions pulling a lot of spark and then working your way back up which I am sure you heard too.

I wish you luck, definitely error on the side of caution while doing it. I hope all turns out well.

But however back to the E85 files and finding out exactly what the legality issue is preventing their release and what we can do to over come it as customers.
Only Jack can answer this for us.