8 Car Brands Falling Behind.....Scion on the list

[suaveflooder]

Originally Posted by cfusionpm

The tC was actually a really great car when it first came out. Looked good, seated 5, had relatively sporty performance (well... mine had I/E, springs and short shifter), got good MPG on 87 octane, and more space inside than I knew what to do with. Also at the time, the only thing close to style and performance was the Acura RSX, which retailed for several thousand more. I absolutely loved mine and couldn't care less what other people thought about the car or the brand.

I never really cared for the TC, but my good friend had one. He LOVED that car! There is some loyalty for sure with him, so I get where you are coming from.

I think my problem with scion is that there is a lot of "wanna be cool" parts that are put on them. Example is the "Carbon fiber" parts on the FRS. I almost walked away from the car because of this. It just looks tacky. Thankfully the car drives and handles beautifully.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Maybe I'm nitpicking, but to me, Mustangs aren't sports cars, they're muscle cars. Of course with that same logic, you could reasonably say muscle cars are kind of a subcategory of sports cars. All I know is that Mustangs, Camaros, and those Dodge things aren't desirable to me. So to me, they're a different class.

Well notice that in my post I called the original a sports car and not the newer one.

However you seem to be confused about some car classification. The Mustang is not a muscle car.

Pony Cars:

• Mustang
• Camaro

Muscle Cars:

• Challenger
• all other muscle car are extinct

One could argue that over the years the Camaro and Mustang have gotten too big to not be muscle cars. However the average vehicle size has gone up, so it seems far for the classification sizes to change as well.

[SigmaHyperion]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

Yahoo finance.. Now there's an authoritative source on car companies..
Sales and percentages fluctuate all the time.. It takes a desperate columnist to come up with something sensational to print.. The FRS has been scions biggest seller for the brand.. I'm sure many at Toyota view it as a complete success.. It all depends on how you look at it.. I think Toyota succeeded in making a brand that delivers entry level cars at value pricing.. It removed the stigma that people had associating boring appliance like cars with its brand..

Your point is that the FRS has been selling well.
The article's point is that Scions, as a whole, have not.

And that is completely accurate.

It is no secret that Toyota has been displeased with Scion's performance. Sales and performance "fluctuate" sure, but Scion's fortunes have been going squarely in one direction -- DOWN.

Its sales plummeted far beyond the average during the recession and while others struggled to regain them, Scion kept falling. And kept falling even as the industry game roaring back. If not for the FRS, its sales would still be lower than they were even in the depths of the recession, and almost 1/4th what they were at peak -- and all that while sales of the industry have doubled.

So, to recap, if Scion had been keeping pace with the industry, they'd be selling about 250,000 cars per year right now. Instead, even with the FRS, they're only about 35% of that figure. And remove the FRS from the equation and they're only at about 20% of that figure.

That's the point of the article -- that Scion's sales are about ONE-FIFTH what they should be. When the industry is stampeding forward, and you're selling barely half the cars you did pre-recession, that's the very definition of a brand that is "falling behind".

A single star in the lineup is no reason to save a marque that's clearly not performing. It's a reason to move that model somewhere else.

Scion, as a marque, brings absolutely nothing to the table. That's the key difference between it and every other brand mentioned on the list (except maybe Kia). Volvo, Lincoln, Mini, Volkwagen, Fiat, Chrysler -- they all have a rich history and immediate brand recognition. Even if they may be in the pits now, even if they may have been in there for some time (looking at Lincoln), their value as a name has almost infinite value and they'll keep trudging along for almost that reason alone. But "Scion" -- it harkens nothing at all. Even if one were to presume that the marketing towards younger buyers worked (and by all accounts it did), there's one problem -- young people aren't buying cars anymore. The rate of young people buying cars is half what it was 10 years ago. For the first time in some 50 years, the average age a young person starts driving in the US has actually increased. Scion is now the 'go-to' brand for a market that is shrinking; something readily obvious given their sales performance.

Maybe if they'd kept the wave of the xB going, they'd have been able to ride it somewhere. But they let it die off with stagnant models that didn't keep up with the extremely rapidly changing pace of the very 'hipsters' they were targetting. As Apple can vouch, 'hip' can be an amazing market, but it's one that you've got to stay on top of and change MUCH more rapidly than any other in the auto industry. And maybe they'll be able to ride the FR-S into something more and make themselves more sport-oriented, but I don't see anything on the horizon to indicate as much.

If they're so intent on keeping another brand, at this point they'd be better off bringing back the Daihatsu name rather than Scion; and changing their target demo to the smaller, lower-end of the market. Scion was almost meant to be a marketing exercise, that's why it didn't get all the standalone dealerships, and in my opinion, it's time has come and gone. These things don't change all that quickly though -- hell, Mitsubishi has ignored the writing on the wall for almost 10 years now. Even if Toyota decided today to drop Scion, it'd likely hang around for at least a few years slowly winding down its presence.

[thill]

I thought this article was pretty informative:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/business...,7273424.story

DETROIT (Reuters) - Scion, Toyota Motor Corp's sagging youth-oriented brand, will not be rejuvenated by fresh models on its U.S. showroom floors anytime soon, a top U.S. Toyota executive said on Thursday.

Bob Carter, senior vice president of Toyota Motor Sales USA, said that while the company's main Toyota brand is rolling out fresh products this year, the 1,000 U.S. Toyota dealers that also handle Scion will have to wait longer.

"We have a very robust and very exciting product cadence coming for Scion, however, it's further down the pipeline," Carter told Reuters in an interview on Thursday.

Scion sales through August were down 1.6 percent from a year earlier. At this pace, this year's Scion sales will be only about 40 percent of that of the brand's peak year in 2006.

Carter would not be specific on the timing of any new product for Scion, saying only that nothing new was coming in the next half year.

Carter last month told U.S. Toyota dealers they could drop the Scion brand without penalty.

While some analysts said that signaled the beginning of the end of the Scion brand at Toyota, Carter said that was not so.

"We are absolutely committed to the brand as our youth strategy going into the future," Carter said.

Still, he admitted that Scion sales are sagging, and told the dealers that with no new product coming soon, they could without any repercussions devote the showroom space to Toyota-branded products that they now use for Scion.

Carter said none of the company's dealers have said they will drop Scion.

Toyota launched the Scion brand in 2003, and it is focused on the North American market.

The age of Scion buyers is younger than for that of most other brands sold in the United States. Carter says the average age of a Scion buyer is 32, but Detroit-area research firm Polk, now a part of IHS Automotive, said that average age is 49 years.

Tom Libbey of Polk said there are several ways to calculate the age of car buyers. He said Polk tallies from official vehicle registration data. Often, he said, the primary driver of a car may be younger than the person, such as a parent, who registers the vehicle.

Scion U.S. sales were 73,505 last year, and its 2013 sales through August were a modest 48,959, which is on pace for less than 70,000 this year. Its peak year for U.S. sales was 2006, at 173,034, when the brand had only three models to sell.

Through August, Scion accounted for only 0.3 percent of Toyota's 1.53 million in U.S. sales, while the premium Lexus brand accounted for 11.1 percent and the Toyota brand 88.9 percent.

Scion has five models. The best-selling one so far in 2013 has been the new FR-S sports coupe, which at 13,537 sold in the U.S. market is just slightly more than the tC sedan.

The boxy hatchback compact xB is next at 12,740 in U.S. sales through August, followed by the xD hatchback subcompact at 6,257 sold and the iQ minicar has sold only 3,078 this year.

Carter said he's confident that Scion sales will rebound.

"It's just going to take us a little longer to see the growth," he said.

While Carter would not talk specifically about future product, IHS Automotive has said that it expects an FR-S convertible to join the lineup next year, followed by a new xB in 2016 and a compact crossover in 2017.

One of the main reasons Toyota dealers are hanging on to the Scion franchise is that nearly 75 percent of Scion customers are first-time buyers, said Carter, and when they buy a second vehicle, they stay with Scion or move up to Toyota or Lexus.

It sounds like Toyota is still committed to Scion and no current Toyota dealers who carry Scion today are planning on dropping them (most likely due to the FR-S).

Still, with lack of new models things could get worse before they get better.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

However you seem to be confused about some car classification.

So I take it the difference between a muscle car and a pony car are physical size? I'd heard the term "pony car" before but I figured people were just making some sort of slang reference to horsepower.

[n2oinferno]

Originally Posted by Anthony

So I take it the difference between a muscle car and a pony car are physical size? I'd heard the term "pony car" before but I figured people were just making some sort of slang reference to horsepower.

Give this a quick read, it's fairly interesting: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony_car"]Pony car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

The pony car started with the Mustang, and that's also where the "pony" portion came from. Muscle cars, for the most part, have been a version of your normal family car, with the optional huge engine in it. At least, that's how I've always understood it.

Sports cars break down even further, really. There are some that wouldn't consider the FRS/BRZ a "true sports car" because it is a 2+2. Some further don't think something is a true sports car until it's a two-seater roadster.

Semantics, really. I think we have plenty of sporty options available, and just many subclasses of what a "sports car" truly is.

[Brzetto]

It should have been brought here as a USDM Toyota 86 anyway.

[mwjcyber]

I'm reading lots of delusions about Scion. No way that brand is still around in 5 years.

In the 90's Toyota was cool with the MR2, Celica, and Supra. Toyota will release the new Supra and MR2 type of car, rebadge the FRS, and dump Scion.

[userjack6880]

Scion could be saved by throwing out their less... fun cars. The tC isn't a bad car at all, and like somebody else said, if the FR-S/BRZ never existed, I would have gone for the tC. Now that the FR-S does exist, the tC is now their second best car. It's a sporty car that's fairly decent looking, has good features, still practical, and much more predictable for less experience drivers. It's a definite keeper in the Scion lineup. Give the masses a taste of fun in a safe and cheap package.

The xB, and iQ either need to be rebadged as really cheap Toyotas (they're fairly reliable and practical, but not fun) or killed. The xC could go either way - improve the platform, make it a fun hot-hatch (which Toyota lacks) like the old Honda CR-X or kill it.

Now, add in a Supra variant and maybe a convertible for those that want one, and the Scion brand *may* start to do well. Attract the young demographic with two cheap fun cars, two higher prices performance vehicles, and a possible third configuration.

[regal]

Originally Posted by userjack6880

Scion could be saved by throwing out their less... fun cars. The tC isn't a bad car at all, and like somebody else said, if the FR-S/BRZ never existed, I would have gone for the tC. .

The Tc is about as opposite of a coupe from the FRS as you can get. They are good dependable fwd practical cars that look decent but far from being a sports car?

[userjack6880]

Originally Posted by regal

The Tc is about as opposite of a coupe from the FRS as you can get. They are good dependable fwd practical cars that look decent but far from being a sports car?

It's not a sports car in the sense that the FR-S is, but I wouldn't call it boring. It's a fun, dependable car. Similar market, different approach.

[Suberman]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

What? In your own link the 3rd chart down proves that false. Scion's 2012 sales were less than half of what they were in the mid to late 2000's. 2012's sales were up about 25k over 2011, and the FR-S is pretty much responsible for that bump. Otherwise the line up is dying. Take away the FR-S and Scion as a brand is down to 30% of the output they previously were.

Recession. Every car maker in the World shows that pattern.

[Basket Case]

Has anyone seen the new Carroll's commercial? They are attempting to make the corolla look fun, young, etc. I would imagine scion will be going away...

[regal]

Originally Posted by Suberman

Recession. Every car maker in the World shows that pattern.

No the auto industry has picked up considerably, that's the whole point of the list from the OP. Even with the "successful" FR-S they are shrinking, to the point that Toyota wants rid of half the dealers. It is true that Scion isn't like Lexus, the car's are titled Make: Toyota :Model Scion-FRS.

Scion might become a Toyota "series" more than a brand.

But Subaru is just holding all the cards from a technical standpoint with this car. They have the FA20Turbo for sale in their legacy and it has no Toyota DI, all Subaru DI. They own/run the plant where the cars are built Just got to think they will leverage that somehow, they could just drop that engine in the BRZ at no price increase. They are a much more successful company than Scion. I tend to think in the last 5 years Scion failed in a similar market they wanted badly that Subaru took a lot of customers they wanted.

Tada's "philosophies" and corporate arraignments are obstacles to this, hopefully Tada will be pragmatic, quit high hoping about flux capacitors and other non-sense and just let Subaru build the car they wanted to in the first place. I mean the entire industry is going DI+Turbo on small 4 cylinders, its a winning formula.