Sprintex or Vortech, which setup has more potential?

[phloozy]

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

@Dezoris Who the fuck do you think you are?

My perception of you is that you gather up all the bullshit that goes around on forums and then make pretty videos about them. Then all the bullshitters worship you and it goes to your head and you think you are some kind of authority on the subject matter.

You're not.

Yes, you do 'bring something to the community'. You bring bullshit, and people that unfortunately don't know any better, lap it up.


Think of it like this. When computer nerds watch a film like 'Hackers', they kind of accept it but know it's fake and not realistic. They make little jokes and laugh about it.

That's what qualified engineers/tuners do when they see your junk. All the ignoramuses love it though and think it's amazing.




Just because a tuner doesn't tell you what you 'think' you need to hear doesn't make them shifty or secretive. It's more than likely what you're asking for is just irrelevant nonsense, a bit like this question "Why was the MAF left in the factory location where is becomes totally useless?".


I know you're not going to change what you do, and your followers will protest and throw mud at this post, but use this to understand that more qualified people, are laughing at you. I don't doubt you mean well, I am sure you think you're doing the right thing, but I am not convinced what you advertise is the right thing is actually what you are conveying.

A thank you wasnt enough for me. I have been trying to pin point what it is that irks me about Dezoris' content and this is it. It just seems like everything in his content starts with "I talked to this guy x and he said y".

[ft_sjo]

Originally Posted by Calum

Can you explain why having an intake air temperature sensor before the compressor is better then having it afterwards?

Because the ECU performs compensations for both fuelling and spark based on the temperature of air actually entering the engine. Measuring it before the supercharger will lead to less-than-ideal behaviour due to the compressor heating the air up. This is particularly bad on the Innovate 'non-intercooled' kit, as the Australian version with charge cooler should produce much more reasonable air charge temperatures.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

Because the ECU performs compensations for both fuelling and spark based on the temperature of air actually entering the engine. Measuring it before the supercharger will lead to less-than-ideal behaviour due to the compressor heating the air up. This is particularly bad on the Innovate 'non-intercooled' kit, as the Australian version with charge cooler should produce much more reasonable air charge temperatures.

ok, that explains why it's better to have the sensor downstream of the compressor, but the post I quote was saying that the sensor should be upstream of the compressor.

[ft_sjo]

Originally Posted by Calum

ok, that explains why it's better to have the sensor downstream of the compressor, but the post I quote was saying that the sensor should be upstream of the compressor.

I don't know/care about previous quotes/opinion. There may be some confusion where people are saying 'MAF' when they mean 'IAT', just because the OE setup has them both in the same unit. Any decent tuner shouldn't be constrained by that fact, unless changing a MAP sensor and adding a wire is too much of a challenge.

If an enthusiast like me can do it, anyone can. I won't be making a flashy video about it, though.

[Wonderbar]

Wow another one of these threads.

Every kit on the market (with the exception of the e-charger, don't take much offense) is 300whp capable. Some hit it easier than others and they will all need the same supporting mods to do it (injectors, clutch, good tune, etc). At the end of the day it matters on what your goals are and how you want to get there.

What do you want to do with the car? How much do you have to spend? What do you want the car to feel like? Etc... Are all questions you need to analyze when planning your build.

[swift996]

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

I don't know/care about previous quotes/opinion. There may be some confusion where people are saying 'MAF' when they mean 'IAT', just because the OE setup has them both in the same unit. Any decent tuner shouldn't be constrained by that fact, unless changing a MAP sensor and adding a wire is too much of a challenge.

If an enthusiast like me can do it, anyone can. I won't be making a flashy video about it, though.

Confused, so you do have a modified MAP sensor to collect IATs? Stateside FA20Club and Nameless have both made some MAP plates that fit a sensor for post-compression IATs. I don't think any have hit the market yet (hence no data).

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by Adeets

You need to update your signature my friend, I followed it to your build post, which lead me to a YouTube dyno, with no actual dyno on it.

Also why did you part ways with visconti?

I do need to update my ridedomain.com page. I will try and do it tonight. I parted ways with Visconti because of this:



Visconti street tuned my car down in Orlando. Then when I got home, I put it on the local Dynojet and it didn't make nearly the numbers I was hoping for. I tried working with him to improve the top end, but he didn't seem interested in fixing it and would not tell me what he was changing in the ROMs he sent me. They all seemed to feel exactly the same. I got tired of doing datalogs without knowing what was being changed and then waiting a week for another ROM to try.

I then hatched a plan with @Sportsguy83 to get dyno tuned by Toni @FA20Club.com to get dyno tuned so I knew my car would make the 300+ whp it was supposed to make. That is where that graph above came from. We made the first pass on Visconti's tune at 15 psi, and I told Toni to make sure he beat that tune, and boy did he ever and at 12.5 psi.

[F1point4]

Going back to the original question: The innovate debate above and the Vortech intricacies discussed ad-nauseum aside I think the key message everyone needs to understand doing any sort of FI

You have to pay to play.


Are you ready for
> no more warranty for the motor, or at all for that matter. Most don't want their dealer to know what they have done.
> Cooling - Radiators/Oil coolers
> Tyres
> Brakes
> Catch cans
> more frequent fluid changes

Probably is a whole ton more.

[regal]

Originally Posted by Calum

Can you explain why having an intake air temperature sensor before the compressor is better then having it afterwards?

There is a difference between better and useless. The MAF sensor is not useless with the Innovate kit, that is pure nonsense.

You can't defy physics, the ideal gas law PV=nRT means that if you know the volume and temperature inand the boost after you know the temperature after boost because n has been iterated. That's Sprintex/Innovate/Moto-Mike's big secret that Dezoris is so paranoid about because the guys he talks to don't have a clue.

[ft_sjo]

Originally Posted by swift996

Confused, so you do have a modified MAP sensor to collect IATs? Stateside FA20Club and Nameless have both made some MAP plates that fit a sensor for post-compression IATs. I don't think any have hit the market yet (hence no data).

I have a Bosch 2.5 bar map sensor with integrated IAT sensor. It's what Sprintex supply with their chargecooler kit. There's nothing stopping other tuners going and finding an equivalent (or the same) and using it.

I thought this was pretty obvious, so i'm surprised noone else has mentioned it. Also pretty surprised tuners don't seem to be doing it, and even offering nonsensical alternatives, like the FA20club adapter plate (sorry, but it's true!).

I wasn't going to mention this, but I thought you guys should know what's easily capable.

[utekineir]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

Boy let's hope! This is exciting stuff. Seems like we're right on the cusp of seeing a lot of improvement with both blowers; perhaps it would be prudent to wait a month or two and make a decision then.

^

I've been trying to read through whatever material I can since May when I decided to get one of these cars. The only conclusion i've come to is that there is no conclusion as it currently stands.

Fact of the matter is

1) Its a new platform, theres still a lot to iron out and development and improvement for the current solutions on the market. None of the current products have fully matured, and theres still some not even out yet (jackson).

The back and forth shitstorm that makes up the entirety of this thread is proof of that.

2) We will have snow soon. I'll be garaging this car and driving my forester. Looks like you recently picked up an old sti.



May i suggest putting snow tires on the sti, having a goddamn blast this winter, and seeing how the dust has settled by spring?

[swift996]

@ft_sjo would you mind sharing any logs if you have them or any observations on the delta between the IATs? Ideally plotted over time would be great.

[ft_sjo]

Originally Posted by swift996

@ft_sjo would you mind sharing any logs if you have them or any observations on the delta between the IATs? Ideally plotted over time would be great.

I can do once I actually get round to installing and mapping the kit! Couple of weeks...

The ECU only has one IAT input.. so i'd have to add a thermocouple of something pre-supercharger, if that's what you mean? To be honest that's going to be ambient once you're moving more than 40mph..

[regal]

Originally Posted by utekineir

^




May i suggest putting snow tires on the sti, having a goddamn blast this winter, and seeing how the dust has settled by spring?

Smartest strategy. Also I wouldn't be surprised if the FA20 adapter plate gives less accurate data. Its going to be several months before we really know who cracks the Innovate open.

There are rumors that Innovate bought the non-intercooled kits (a lot of them) and have to sell them all before they offer the intercooled version.

I hope this isn't true, when I look at the Innovate manifold intuitively it just looks like an intercooler is going to rob CFM. All this car really needs is 200ft-lbs of torque for the street. If Motor-mike can do that on PUMP gas without an intercooler we all win. $3700 is a bargain for 200 ft-lbs of torque.