Potential Buyer. Turbo vs. Supercharger

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by DJCarbine

I actually purchased a centrifugal for the linear powerband and modest power increase (if you can call ~250whp modest). I did not want to deal with any more power, and did not see a reason for it. I personally think gobs of power in a car like this ruins it for me. When I was younger my goal was always "How much power can I get out of this".... however, its changed.

I did my homework and got exactly what I wanted. If you buy a forced induction kit then take it off to install something else, I think that just means you did not research your options properly..... however, I have been guilty of that in the past

to each his own of course, but i'd still argue that wanting 'linear... modest power increase' means you want a supercharger, and that a twin screw is still better at that job than a centrifugal. the benefit to the centrifugal of course is usually more power up top than the twin screw, but then if you wanted power up top you'd get a turbo. the centrifugal is like the middle child that is kinda reasonably ok at everything but really good at nothing.

again i'll qualify that by saying that i own a turbo and the fastest 86 i've been in has a centrifugal, so it's not that they're not awesome in their own right, just that any car with one would've been better suited by a turbo or twin screw depending on what they wanted. it's a compromise where one is not necessary now that we have a twin screw blower and so many turbos to choose from.

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by jamesm

to each his own of course, but i'd still argue that wanting 'linear... modest power increase' means you want a supercharger, and that a twin screw is still better at that job than a centrifugal. the benefit to the centrifugal of course is usually more power up top than the twin screw, but then if you wanted power up top you'd get a turbo. the centrifugal is like the middle child that is kinda reasonably ok at everything but really good at nothing.

again i'll qualify that by saying that i own a turbo and the fastest 86 i've been in has a centrifugal, so it's not that they're not awesome in their own right, just that any car with one would've been better suited by a turbo or twin screw depending on what they wanted. it's a compromise where one is not necessary now that we have a twin screw blower and so many turbos to choose from.

Actually, with a header the Vortech shows surprising numbers. From what I remember FA20 dyno'ed at 300whp on pump with their header & tune. That lines fairly close to *some* turbos in efficiency, while retaining a linear power band. First time innovate came out, I jumped on "screw vortech I'm doing this" bandwagon but now that more data is coming out makes me think twice. Point is, there's plenty of good choices for solid power.

For OP: Test drive the car, and you'll know . I'm a LS1 junkie, and when looking for a newer car was looking at mainly the Mustang GT & Ft86. After multiple test drives in the Mustang, I just couldn't convince myself it was the better car, for ~6k more. The engine & exhaust note is definitely wonderful, but if your looking for something new the Ft86 definitely fits into that ballpark IMO.

Now, I definitely crave more power, that's for sure . But I'm currently working on paying off bills, and lurking in this forum, and once I'm a little more financially stable (hopefully when I pay the car off, but maybe not that long lol...) I'll definitely be jumping on the F/I bandwagon. My goal is 300whp which should give me a respectible power/weight compared to the v8's. Just looking for something that can keep up on the track (not street/drags strip).

N/A though, this car is almost perfect. I could probably get it to a respectible level with some minor mods, but I'd honestly rather just wait and do F/I instead of wasting money on N/A mods. I've hooned the car around my fair share, and it definitely doesn't get old. In a straight line, the car is definitely lacking, but that's not what the car is for.

[Zeus]

Give me base Cayman specs (275/213 hp/tq?) for a turnkey FI package at a little over 30K (including the car lol) and I'd shit myself. I'd like to see a little better powerband and the kinks worked out from these turbo kits but we're almost there.

But srsly take this car to a place you can freely/legally drive it around sideways and you'll rarely care about straight line speed again.

Sorry for the bump hah

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by 18Bravo34

If you arent a motorhead, get a supercharger period! With a turbo there is alot of tuning and other stuff involved. As far as data, its out there. Toyota Racing Development released its Supercharger for this car last month. It is expensive! 15k expensive. If you have a friend in the business he can set up a dealer acct with the dealership and get it for wholesale. The only other issue is they have to order 2 at a time! This Supercharger is the one on the TRD 86GT JDM. Toyota Japan has definitely done all there homework however here in the states it is hard to find because that car is a Japanese Domestic Model. On the turbo side...Full Blown Motorsports has a great turbo with tons of dyno time, just order one and turn the boost down.

TRD SC was actually released March 1st, 2013 with a price tag of 26K each, minimum 2, absurd joke...

Originally Posted by Curt Aigner

Looks there will not be a consumer TRD SC kit for the masses

March 1, 2013
To: Toyota Parts, Sales and Service Managers
SUBJECT: Pirelli World Challenge/Scion Racing Parts Inquiries – FR-S Supercharger

As part of Scion and Toyota Racing Development’s participation in the Pirelli World
Challenge series, regulations require Scion to provide parts information through Scion
dealership Parts Departments. The requirement is meant to support Pirelli World Challenge
race teams that have an interest in racing Scion products.
An FR-S Supercharger has been developed by TRD for

racing use only. The kit is set up for
race teams only, and is not intended/legal for street use. The kit includes only the housingmanifold,
rotor group, intercooler cores and low temp radiator. Any mounting/fitment details
are the responsibility of the team purchasing the kit. Also, engine management software is
the sole responsibility of the team.
Part Number Cost Minimum Order Quantity
PTR29-00086 $26,000/Kit 2 Kits
Order lead time on the kits is approximately 7 – 9 weeks.

Please note: there is no requirement or expectation that the Parts Department will
stock Pirelli World Challenge racing parts.
If an inquiry is received regarding this supercharger kit, please have the interested

party call 1-888-551-2929, option 2.

[campy]

Originally Posted by Sportsguy83

TRD SC was actually released March 1st, 2013 with a price tag of 26K each, minimum 2, absurd joke...

My guess is that most race teams who use the TRD supercharger are sponsored by TRD anyway, so they probably never even see the price tag.

[Sportsguy83]

Originally Posted by campy

My guess is that most race teams who use the TRD supercharger are sponsored by TRD anyway, so they probably never even see the price tag.

My point still stands, the price is an absurd joke...

[wrxgoose]

people actually ask me all the time if my Innovate SC is a TRD one. So i tell them about the 52K price tag for 2, and they are usually astounded that TRD would do that.

[InvalidJohnny5]

Personally I haven't had any issues with my turbo except speeding tickets...then again I had it professionally installed and tuned.

[King Tut]

I love all this talk about linear power and superchargers. A linear power curve is created by a flat torque curve. The only thing that is linear about a Vortech is the boost curve. Look at this comparison of my FBM turbo on 93 octane and charged's Vortech on E85 on the same dyno on the same day:





He made more power than me and a few ft/lbs of torque more, but look at the curves. Look at the torque curves from 4000 to 7000 RPM where I am making over 200 ft/lbs the entire time, he starts at 130 ft/lbs and rises to 230 ft/lbs. He doesn't make more horespower than me until 6300 RPM either. His curve might look more linear, but it actually isn't because his torque continues to increase with RPM making it less linear in reality. Now realize he is on E85 and making about the most power I have seen from a Vortech car, and I am still on a little turbo 93 octane tune that beat him in every area until 6300 RPM. So the real question is, do you only want power in the upper RPM range?

[phloozy]

Originally Posted by King Tut

I love all this talk about linear power and superchargers. A linear power curve is created by a flat torque curve. The only thing that is linear about a Vortech is the boost curve. Look at this comparison of my FBM turbo on 93 octane and charged's Vortech on E85 on the same dyno on the same day:





He made more power than me and a few ft/lbs of torque more, but look at the curves. Look at the torque curves from 4000 to 7000 RPM where I am making over 200 ft/lbs the entire time, he starts at 130 ft/lbs and rises to 230 ft/lbs. He doesn't make more horespower than me until 6300 RPM either. His curve might look more linear, but it actually isn't because his torque continues to increase with RPM making it less linear in reality. Now realize he is on E85 and making about the most power I have seen from a Vortech car, and I am still on a little turbo 93 octane tune that beat him in every area until 6300 RPM. So the real question is, do you only want power in the upper RPM range?

Listen King Tut, I was just about set on going Innovate SC and here you go making the decision even harder. Thanks jerk!

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by phloozy

Listen King Tut, I was just about set on going Innovate SC and here you go making the decision even harder. Thanks jerk!

I wish there was an Innovate supercharger at the 86 Nationals to compare to. It's curves look alot more like a turbo than the Vortech though.

[phloozy]

Originally Posted by King Tut

I wish there was an Innovate supercharger at the 86 Nationals to compare to. It's curves look alot more like a turbo than the Vortech though.

Ya i still am probably just going innovate based on cost

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by phloozy

Ya i still am probably just going innovate based on cost

I believe that the cost is the primary factor in the majority of the Innovate kit sales at this point.

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by King Tut

I love all this talk about linear power and superchargers. A linear power curve is created by a flat torque curve. The only thing that is linear about a Vortech is the boost curve. Look at this comparison of my FBM turbo on 93 octane and charged's Vortech on E85 on the same dyno on the same day:

Another comparison, with Moto Mike's e85 base (7psi) Innovate tune

EDIT: Just noticed, not exactly a fair comparison as Innovate tune is on dynojet!







I think the Vortech would be *really* nice with an expanded rev range and maybe shorter gears, to keep it in its power band. I really like how the Vortech seems to keep climing even up until redline, alluding to the fact that it wants more revs.