Intake "Hard" pipes and upgrades - performance difference?

[fl62]

I would like to know people's experiences with some of the different intake upgrades for the FA20. I am trying to compare performance differences between intake pipe upgrades (Sillicone tube with or without sound resonator, Roto-molded, etc), filter upgrades (Panel filters, Cone style, inside an airbox, etc), and complete system changes (Such as Perrin CAI vs stock location with a cold air "Snorkel").

Please keep in mind that I have read through many of the threads here on individual reviews - but I am not looking for product reviews! I am hoping to hear some information about differences in performance - not just whether or not there was a HP or Torque increase - but also if there was a change in throttle response or acceleration. Hopefully the responses are based on actual experience, and not a bunch of "workbench engineering" based only on marketing ads.

I am personally trying a few off the shelf systems, and currently have made my own intake system using parts from multiple sources.

My background comes from my professional experience and education in aerospace, composites, and owning a automotive performance / tuning shop "back in the day". The "FT-86" is my new toy to mess around with performance stuff again. My last JDM car was a 2008 Mazdaspeed 6 - which I traded about 3 years ago for a lifted truck.

The intake I built below is simply a Zeta Drop-In "dry" filter, with a custom made 3" Carbon Fiber intake "Hard Pipe". It is constant diameter, and matches the MAF sensor size and throttle body. My car currently has an Invidia N1 Cat Back system only, and is lowered on Eibach Pro Kits and 19x8.5 w/ 235/35 rubber.

This is different from the Airaid CAI and Weapon R systems I have tried in that they both used a much larger 3 1/2" or 4" intake tube, with a smaller 3" tube or MAF section inside, without transitions. While in both of my experiences with them, they made a significant difference in performance (READ - I didn't say "Increase in power") - they both changed the response behavior of the engine. While they both sounded "Cool", I ultimately didn't like the change in engine response they made. My goal is to figure out an intake system that maximizes the engine response throughout the RPM range, and if it happens to add a few ponies that is "icing on the cake". The stock system seems pretty well designed, and the few aftermarket options I have tried seemed to hold back the engine in one area, but really opened up in another - giving the "feeling" of a big jump in power.

Hopefully we can figure out a clear path to what makes the "best" intake system for overall response, with a little power.....

Thanks in advance for your input!

[tonystewart]

FA20 CAI doesn't get as hot, cools down quicker, at speed is within 2 degrees of OAT. IMHO, any system that containers a filter in the engine bay will run hotter than Toni's CAI.
Also, Toni's system has less pipe than others in the engine bay to heat up.

[fl62]

That's exactly the kind of info I am looking for. Can you comment on how the throttle response is? Any different than stock?

[wparsons]

Does the FA20club kit fit without having to trim the rad shroud at all?

[tonystewart]

I can not comment on throttle repsonse.
Get a tune first, then the CAI, data log for the new CAI, flash updated tune, good to go.

[tonystewart]

I did not trim anything. No trimming!
If you want to run the radiator front trim pieces buy the long wet filter, if not the dry filter works fine.

[Turdinator]

I have a perrin silicone tube, perrin foam panel filter, maxracing dynamic duct and all of the resonators removed and the holes that left sealed up.

The silicone tube wasn't very noticeable. A slight loss of low rpm response and gain in top end was my initial impression. What I did note tho was when i removed the stock tube it was too hot to hold as i had just driven home from work. I have occasionally opened my hood and touched the perrin one and not once has it been anything more than luke warm.

The panel filter was far more noticeable. It felt sharper and more responsive everywhere.

The maxracing dynamic duct felt stronger in the upper rev range with little to no difference down low. It also feels as if acceleration doesn't drop off as quickly as speeds increase compared to the stock snorkel.

The removal of the resonators was purely to unleash the intake noise and didn't effect response, drivability or power noticeably.

My intention with my intake mods is to increase potential flow for when I eventually install some longer duration higher lift cams rather than massive gains now. If that makes sense.

Your carbon fibre hard tube looks good. Did you notice much difference after installing it?

[fl62]

The carbon hard pipe makes a definite difference in response. It doesn't have the sluggish feeling when you hit the gas. I did try it with and without the panel filter, and the difference is still very noticeable. Adding the panel filter really let it breath in the higher RPM range.

I am planning to make another one but going to try a variable diameter design similar to the SARD part. I am curious if those types of designs really make a difference - but I don't want the stereotypical "Whale-Pen_s" looking intake where it is bulged in the middle.

[arghx7]

How can you asses throttle response and control for skewed MAF sensor readings?

[Laika]

Did you notice a sound change from the CF tube?

The BMW CSL has a CF airbox/plenum and that produced a fantastic induction noise. It would be interesting to simulate that.

[Turdinator]

Originally Posted by fl62

The carbon hard pipe makes a definite difference in response. It doesn't have the sluggish feeling when you hit the gas. I did try it with and without the panel filter, and the difference is still very noticeable. Adding the panel filter really let it breath in the higher RPM range.

I am planning to make another one but going to try a variable diameter design similar to the SARD part. I am curious if those types of designs really make a difference - but I don't want the stereotypical "Whale-Pen_s" looking intake where it is bulged in the middle.

You should sell the carbon tubes. I am sure there is a market for them.

[fl62]

If I were to make some available for sale, what do you guys feel a fair market price would be that people would buy. I'm would do it for the sake of the 86 group, but of course carbon fiber cloth isn't cheap, and I still work a full time job.

Give me your input on a great price, and i'll see what it will take to hit it.

[FR-Sizzle]

Originally Posted by fl62

If I were to make some available for sale, what do you guys feel a fair market price would be that people would buy. I'm would do it for the sake of the 86 group, but of course carbon fiber cloth isn't cheap, and I still work a full time job.

Give me your input on a great price, and i'll see what it will take to hit it.

200~ would be fair considering other intake pipes cost 80-130. When you buy a part like Sards you are just paying for the name and that piece probably doesnt even sell considering they make it by order. 600 dollars(shipping from Japan, Taxes) for their intake tube that keeps the sound generator is way too much for what it does. For 600 dollars I rather buy Password JDM's Carbon Fiber parts for the engine bay and you can buy 2-3 things for that price.

Not a lot of people would spend a lot on a piece that just makes the engine bay look nicer. It is just a bling piece as it barely provides any gains. 1 whp if your lucky which is negligible since every dyno will vary 1-3 whp run to run. IMO intakes arent worth the money when you can get the same results with a drop in filter. If you look at most intakes for the FR-S and BRZ you will see the dyno's that some of them lose power at some spots on the dyno graphs. Keeping an OEM air box with improvements is the best route IMO as it gets better performance and anything you do to improve the air box is just improving the OEM design to make it better knowing that you arent tricking the MAF to lean out the cars AFR's.

I believe the best intake upgrade you can get if you factor in cost of the upgrade would be an intake duct. HKS and Max Racing intake ducts both cost below 300 bucks. You also have a Prova intake duct for 400 which is really expensive for just a duct and IMO its not as nice as the HKS/Max Racing pieces. Theirs also the Syms Racing Intake duct that changes the whole front half of the OEM air box but its very pricey, costs about 900 bucks not including tax/shipping from Japan. Gruppe M also has an intake with 2 ducts that replaces the air box and I believe a poster on these forums e-mailed them and they said they got about 10 whp on the dyno. The design looks very nice but for 2300 + tax/shipping its way too expensive for just an intake. You could spend 2k more and get a turbo with that much money. 2300 can get you a tune, full exhaust(headers, front/over pipe, catback), and a drop in filter or possibly even an intake.

All 3 pieces (intake duct, drop in and silicone tube) keep the stock air box which is already well designed, as most intakes dont really give much of an improvement over a drop in filter, 1-2 whp isnt worth spending 250-350 dollars IMO and if you do its better to spend it on those 3 parts as some intakes have slight drops through out the dyno graph. Improving the air box with a silicone tube, intake duct and drop in filter is the best intake mods you can do for spending the same amount of money on a intake than for that reason. If you want sound then get a CAI but for the same price you can get slightly better performance than a CAI like Perrins. The FA20 CAI according to them get 10~ whp, more power but they lean the AFR's out to improve performance which isnt good for the car as it requires a tune. The Syms Intake duct got 8 whp and 10 wtq on their dyno. People will say its not an independent dyno and it could be BS but Syms is a reputable company IMO. They didnt state whether or not they had a drop in air filter in the air box or not but intake ducts generally dont make much if any whp at all on dyno's. So its safe to assume they had their drop in filter when they did the dyno for the intake duct. Since drop in's get about 4-6 whp as we all saw from drift office dyno's and getting another 2-3~ or so whp from a duct with a drop in is possible IMO. A silicone tube would just improve air flow slightly better in the end to make it smoother and more consistent.

People who buy intake ducts or even short ram and CAI who buy them for power are buying them for the wrong reasons. You buy it for increased throttle response from the extra air it can suck in. You might as well spend 50 more for an after market drop in as it only makes the intake duct even better. TRD has an intake that is a larger air box but for 400 dollars, that gets about just as much as a drop in and that costs as much as an intake duct, drop in, and silicone tube that would get a little more whp and throttle response in the end. I personally dont like oiled filters and most intakes are oiled so going the intake duct route with a dry drop in is what I would prefer to do in the end.

[IceFyre13th]

I first had a FA20club CAI kit on my FRS, but I found some issues with it.

Issue 1: Heat Soak, always ran 10 degrees F above ambient at speed, if stopped at a light or longer the difference is 30 to 50 degrees hotter than ambient and would take 1/4 to 1/2 mile to get back to 10 degrees hotter.........

Issue 2: The MAF tube (inside hood area tube) is too small and had the MAF reading more air than was actually being brought in. The under bumper / air cleaner tube is even smaller by 1/4" in diameter (this was done to get it to fit the snorkel opening, but only because the connection of the two tubes was done with a silicone connector right at the location it goes thru the radiator support).....result is lots of turbulence in the intake tubes, also making the MAF read wrong and causing idle to go up and down.

The design idea was sound, just the execution was poorly done.

My fix was to take the FA20club CAI design and fix the issues. I used 1/4 " inside diameter larger tubes (from 2.5" to 2.75") on both tubes. Followed the same bend dimensions as they did. Used a honeycomb flow straightener just after the first bend and 1.5" in front of the MAF mount (Parts from http://www.treadstoneperformance.com ). Where the intake goes through the radiator support the silicon connector hose is "crushed" slightly, but the inside diameter is now the same as the tubing inside diameter.

The heat soak is still an issue, even with ceramic heat coating of the tubes. But with the addition of insulating wrap ( http://www.designengineering.com/cat...tube-cover-kit ) I think I can reduce it, still have to get some to try.

If I had the ability / tools to make a carbon fiber / silicon / plastic MAF tube the heat soak would not be as much of an issue......

While some may think just a "drop in" filter is better, I don't..........you have to ask yourself if its worth the money...........and how many real race cars do you see running factory filter systems?