FRS vs. MR-S (MR2 Spyder)

[daiheadjai]

Not to nitpick, but I believe the 2zz-GE started life in the 7th gen Celica GT-S.
It was only later transferred to the Corolla XRS and Matrix XRS (or Corolla T-Sport in Europe).

That being said, it IS based on the 1zz-FE Corolla engines (even if it was heavily re-worked by Yamaha, and if I'm not mistaken, has different bore/stroke from the 1ZZ).

So you could say that it's a Corolla engine, in the same way that the 2JZ-GE in the first and second generation GS300 (or IS300 or SC300 series) is the same as the Supra TT engine (or vice versa) - which most people would argue is a silly thing to say.

FWIW - I love all 3 generations of MR2 (probably the SW-20 a little more on account of the beautiful stock looks), and now drive a BRZ (after a Corolla-engined, 1ZZ-FE Celica GT). No horse in this race. Just wish Toyota still made cars like the MR2/MRS.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by fatoni

1)you dont know what youre talking about
2)ten years isnt a guarantee but its a pretty strong implication
3)drive train layout is a factor but far from the only one (also far from the most important one) when discussing the quality of a chassis.
4 and 5 arent really important.

1-I call BS on your remark. GL explaining to the cop wth that is when you pop the hood on your ricer. Especially if your LS powered Miata happened to get snagged going over 100mph when you blinked. And yes Corvettes can be that twitchy, let alone a Miata w/ an LS and no electronic or mechanical monitoring or compensation.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzlg3oQMze4"]Two Turkeys on Thanksgiving Wrecking their Corvettes in The Woodlands - YouTube[/ame]

Correction C5; points the same.

2-I provided specifics, you are hypothesizing about generalities based on assumptions. Implication is assumption, you are just guessing. Cars are heavier now and more restricted by CAFE and safety standards than before. This hurts performance. Why are most of the cars listed ahead of the 86 in Tsukuba more than 10 years old?

3-We'll agree to disagree, I'll always take a chassis in MR w/ half the weight and less polar intertia and lower CoG over a behemoth chassis built for a 4000lb AWD car that's only more rigid. If the GTR only had 200hp w/ the same weight, I don't think you or anyone else would take a GTR over a FRs or MRS, so I again call BS on your response.

4/5-Was directed at someone else, I think you are a bit off kilter to even be responding to them...

I hate threads like this where people force you to attack or defend two cars which you both own and like against folks that usually own neither. Such as waste of time and energy. I'm off to enjoy my ridiculously slow and inferior MRS and my Ferrari slaying FRS. Enjoy the rest of the thread.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

Regarding center of gravity, I ended up finding all generations of Toyota MR2:

AW11 CG: 19.0" (483mm)
SW20 CG: 19.7" (500mm)
ZZW30 CG: 19.3" (490mm)
ZN6/ZC6 CG: 18.1" (460mm)

Sources:
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809868.pdf (AW11 SSF)
http://www.carinf.com/en/601046769.html (AW11 track width)
http://chrome.yestechtoday.com/van.htm (AW11 CG was converted from NHTSA published SSF value and track width)
http://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?204-Center-of-Gravity-%28from-old-site%29 (SW20 CG)
http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/A_1349...r/article.html (ZZW30 CG)

That is very interesting. The MR is as low or lower, has no roof and you definitely sit lower in the car even w/ the FRS seats slammed. Must be the upright 1zz then.

[autobrz]

lol... some ppl whosay their car is better i bet will crash if entered into a real race on a track... for most enthusiasts that are not track junkies, cars dont make nearly as much diff as driver skill

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by autobrz

lol... some ppl whosay their car is better i bet will crash if entered into a real race on a track... for most enthusiasts that are not track junkies, cars dont make nearly as much diff as driver skill

To a point. If you have a big fat M or AMG sedan and the brakes and tires are done after 3 laps, I'd say driver skill doesn't matter much.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

1-I call BS on your remark. GL explaining to the cop wth that is when you pop the hood on your ricer. Especially if your LS powered Miata happened to get snagged going over 100mph when you blinked. And yes Corvettes can be that twitchy, let alone a Miata w/ an LS and no electronic or mechanical monitoring or compensation.

Correction C5; points the same.

2-I provided specifics, you are hypothesizing about generalities based on assumptions. Implication is assumption, you are just guessing. Cars are heavier now and more restricted by CAFE and safety standards than before. This hurts performance. Why are most of the cars listed ahead of the 86 in Tsukuba more than 10 years old?

3-We'll agree to disagree, I'll always take a chassis in MR w/ half the weight and less polar intertia and lower CoG over a behemoth chassis built for a 4000lb AWD car that's only more rigid. If the GTR only had 200hp w/ the same weight, I don't think you or anyone else would take a GTR over a FRs or MRS, so I again call BS on your response.

4/5-Was directed at someone else, I think you are a bit off kilter to even be responding to them...

I hate threads like this where people force you to attack or defend two cars which you both own and like against folks that usually own neither. Such as waste of time and energy. I'm off to enjoy my ridiculously slow and inferior MRS and my Ferrari slaying FRS. Enjoy the rest of the thread.

1. yes, ls miatas are illegal but so are 2zz mr2s so how is that a point for the mr2? of course you can make a ls miata dangerous but when swaps are done right they drive pretty much exactly like a regular miata. you arent providing data, just opinion.
2. providing specifics, when incomplete, is no better than what i am doing. the frs is probalby slower due to tires, drivers and modifications.
3. if the gtr only had 200 hp the frs might be faster but if the frs had 500 hp the gtr will definitely be faster. there is a difference between what i want and what is better. mod for mod, an frs or mrs is never going to be nearly as fast as a gtr. the cars were built to go different speeds because they go different speeds.
4/5. i wasnt really responding to those. i dont even have an opinion so i left those out.

[serialk11r]

lol guys back off fatoni, he's just doing his usual thing. It's true that comparing a modified MR-S with a 2ZZ to a stock FRS isn't fair, he's not saying it's not relatively easy or that it doesn't make the car blazingly fast.

The 2ZZ swap is somewhat easy to certify if I'm not mistaken, but it still costs a good chunk of cash. Of course, certifying an engine swap is always a pain in the ass. As far as engine swaps go, it's about as close to stock as you can get for a swap, but it's still a swap.

The MR-S is probably shittier in almost every way except fuel economy, but it is one special car. Not everyone appreciates that, and it's okay, they don't have to buy one.

[daschtick]

Originally Posted by hmong337

I obviously stuck quite the nerve with you fanboys LOL. But it's statements like "A stock MR-S will cream a stock FRS" is what does not hold. Darksunrise posted the data. Have a look and stop crying.

Here is my take - neither car will 'cream' the other. Stock for stock, the twins do not really perform much better than a 13 year older MR2, nor a Celica GT-S, nor a Prelude si. After 13 years of 'progress', plus all of the hype surrounding it, including all of the journalists gushing over it, I figured it would be amazing. But after driving to the dealership in my MR2, then hopping into the FR-S, I was expecting a whole lot more. Yes, it handles nicely, but the tires really hold it back, the brakes were mid-pack, and the torque dip was really disappointing. Really nothing beyond what a 2006+ Miata has to offer. The whole experience left me wondering what I was missing, since it seemed that everyone was raving about it.

The twins are by no means bad cars, but it just seems like there was very little performance improvement over previous similar cars. It could have/should have been so much more. Look at the performance increase of a 2013 Mustang over a 2000 Mustang, or of the Focus ST over the Focus SVT - If the twins would have had this level of increase, there may not be a lowly FWD Focus ST parked next to my MR2 Spyder!

Now, with the news that there will not any future forced induction or convertible versions, I am wondering what is in store for the future of these cars. Kind of a shame, really.

[hmong337]

Originally Posted by daschtick

Here is my take - neither car will 'cream' the other. Stock for stock, the twins do not really perform much better than a 13 year older MR2, nor a Celica GT-S, nor a Prelude si. After 13 years of 'progress', plus all of the hype surrounding it, including all of the journalists gushing over it, I figured it would be amazing. But after driving to the dealership in my MR2, then hopping into the FR-S, I was expecting a whole lot more. Yes, it handles nicely, but the tires really hold it back, the brakes were mid-pack, and the torque dip was really disappointing. Really nothing beyond what a 2006+ Miata has to offer. The whole experience left me wondering what I was missing, since it seemed that everyone was raving about it.

The twins are by no means bad cars, but it just seems like there was very little performance improvement over previous similar cars. It could have/should have been so much more. Look at the performance increase of a 2013 Mustang over a 2000 Mustang, or of the Focus ST over the Focus SVT - If the twins would have had this level of increase, there may not be a lowly FWD Focus ST parked next to my MR2 Spyder!

Now, with the news that there will not any future forced induction or convertible versions, I am wondering what is in store for the future of these cars. Kind of a shame, really.

I completely understand where you're coming from. When people ask how fast my FRS is, I always say "it's got power like a DC2 Integra Type R". Yes, similar power to a car that was built and engineered more than a decade ago is what I reference the FRS to. But the FRS is so much more than that. The platform, chassis architecture, and motor are excellent starting points for a tuning base. It's certainly better than anything in its price range and with the aftermarket, it puts it into another league.

I'm glad that they put shitty Prius tires on the car. The thing I love most is that the FRS still stays very close to its competition but on those junk tires. Take a second and think about that. Junk tires but still turning in close lap times. That says A LOT about the tuning potential of the FRS. The FRS was never made to be fast from the get go. The engineers flat out stated that. HOWEVER, what they did do is leave enormous amounts of potential on the table for guys like us to start tapping into.

Subaru engineers said it best and I STRONGLY agree with what they said here:

2:30 in the video.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_byAbVdt6BY"]Subaru BRZ Development - (Video 2 of 2) - YouTube[/ame]

Basically, you can't spit shine a turd. You've got to start with a good platform designed from the ground up to have a top performing car. The FRS is just that. I could care less about how slow my FRS is stock. It's painfully slow and I let everybody know that. What I do tell people is that I bought it for its future tuning potential and superior handling. The FRS has great amounts of potential just look at what Evasive Motorsports has done with their car running in the Unlimited Class. Racing against fire breathing monsters like modified Vipers and Vettes and holding their own. That's the potential of these cars and I'm glad that I have one.

The Mustang you stated still handles like a turd. The Focus is still a wrong wheel drive understeering tragedy. The only thing that increased "performance wise" about those car is that they're now faster in a straight line. Sure they tweaked the suspensions more and progressed them further but that still doesn't cover the fact that they are still sub par performers. They are far from being the top dogs in their segment. I fail to see your point here with those cars.

The MR-S is quite the performer as well. And with a 2zzge like how the OP wants the MR-S with, it'd be quite competitive. But overall, I still believe the FRS/BRZ is better.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by daschtick

Here is my take - neither car will 'cream' the other. Stock for stock, the twins do not really perform much better than a 13 year older MR2, nor a Celica GT-S, nor a Prelude si. After 13 years of 'progress', plus all of the hype surrounding it, including all of the journalists gushing over it, I figured it would be amazing. But after driving to the dealership in my MR2, then hopping into the FR-S, I was expecting a whole lot more. Yes, it handles nicely, but the tires really hold it back, the brakes were mid-pack, and the torque dip was really disappointing. Really nothing beyond what a 2006+ Miata has to offer. The whole experience left me wondering what I was missing, since it seemed that everyone was raving about it.

The twins are by no means bad cars, but it just seems like there was very little performance improvement over previous similar cars. It could have/should have been so much more. Look at the performance increase of a 2013 Mustang over a 2000 Mustang, or of the Focus ST over the Focus SVT - If the twins would have had this level of increase, there may not be a lowly FWD Focus ST parked next to my MR2 Spyder!

Now, with the news that there will not any future forced induction or convertible versions, I am wondering what is in store for the future of these cars. Kind of a shame, really.

On a track, the twins WILL cream the older cars at just a bolt-on level. The gap only grows as the level of modification increases.

[regal]

Exactly, I bought this car for the chassis its an engineering marvel and the best warranty is one never used. So I've decided to keep it, fix it, and tune it, I've been driving used cars for 25 years maintaining them myself so I guess no warranty isn't a big deal.

[Captain Insano]

Let the fun begin. I think you will fall in love again once you start modifying... :-)

[PhastekSport]

Here's my MR2 with 2zz swap @ the track a LONG time ago. I had it when I was stationed at Fort Bragg. Came back to Houston to have David (aka littlerocket) do the the swap.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px_-QzoPrZs"]MR2 Spyder (modified @ track) - YouTube[/ame]


The times above were done with no LSD. I can only imagine the additional mods I could have done.

At the last Eat Sleep Car Meet in Houston I saw some as well. Made me miss the car. I'd built it all over again if money wasn't a thing. It would just take so much to get me back to where I was. At the end I had a hardtop, Trial body kit, TRD Spoiler, Tein coilovers, TTE sways, and Apexi PFC off the top of my head. The engine had valves and valve springs and could rev over 9k easily.

What people have to remember is that the vehicle is old. You can finance a new FR-S / BRZ easily and start the mods. You might not even be able to finance an older MR2 Spyder.

Biggest regret is that I never took it to a road course / autocross.

[WolfpackS2k]

Regarding engine swaps, NO they are not illegal and I don't know why people keep saying they are. I can certainly see them being illegal in the People's Socialist Republic of California but that is a state issue. In most, if not all other, states they are perfectly legal and are allowed by the federal government. According to the Feds an engine swap can be done if 2 things are met:

1) The engine being swapped into the car has to be from the same model year or newer (i.e. swapping an LS1 [from a late 90s Camaro/Corvette] into an FD RX-7 [made in 92-94] is perfectly legal but swapping a late 90s LS1 into a 2005 S2000 is not).
2) The car must pass the emission requirements for that model year car. If it's OBD-II (1996+) then it must adhere to those requirements. If it's from before 1996 there's a good chance it doesn't even have to pass emissions at all, other than a visual check to confirm the existence of a catalytic converter.

Hell, there are a lot of states out there that never do emissions testing on vehicles..ever.

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

To a point. If you have a big fat M or AMG sedan and the brakes and tires are done after 3 laps, I'd say driver skill doesn't matter much.

Except give any M or AMG car track pads and the brakes won't fade. Tires might overheat from the heft of the car, but you can upgrade the tires as well to fix that.