Wondering if this car will herald a new automotive age... or be a flop?

[Palmy]

I have the same reservations as the OP.
My main concern is that most people outside of this very enthusiastic but small community, just dont give a fuck about the 86's three main selling points.
Most people dont even know what wheels are turned by their motor, and couldnt care less about it.
Most people dont care how much their car weighs, and expect more and more creature comforts.
Most people dont understand that a smoother ride results in poorer handling ability.

So straight away the vast majority of drivers see a small, poorly equipped, relatively expensive car. But having said that, these are problems faced by just about any sports car, however the 86 faces another problem in the eyes of the average consumer, most people who want sports cars want fast cars. Your average "sports car driver" will see 200hp and scoff at the latest hair-dresser-mobile.

[carbonBLUE]

Originally Posted by Palmy

I have the same reservations as the OP.
My main concern is that most people outside of this very enthusiastic but small community, just dont give a fuck about the 86's three main selling points.
Most people dont even know what wheels are turned by their motor, and couldnt care less about it.
Most people dont care how much their car weighs, and expect more and more creature comforts.
Most people dont understand that a smoother ride results in poorer handling ability.

So straight away the vast majority of drivers see a small, poorly equipped, relatively expensive car. But having said that, these are problems faced by just about any sports car, however the 86 faces another problem in the eyes of the average consumer, most people who want sports cars want fast cars. Your average "sports car driver" will see 200hp and scoff at the latest hair-dresser-mobile.

miatas saw the same problem, the car just needs to be promoted and it needs to make a name for itself, after it wins a few races/events and the "fun to drive " concept enters peoples heads, it will sell

if magazines write"funnest car to drive in a while" people who take the car for a test drive or told to just take it for a test drive will feel what the car is about... its a feeling, its the smile, its fun to drive again concept that's a stronger force than numbers, the car has enough research and time put in it that it will put down good times, but that was never the concept of the car in the first place....

[Kids Heart]

All depends on price. Do they want to have a good quarter or play for the long game.

[duffman13]

Going back to the OP, i see this as an interesting question.

I don't think this car will stick around long, nor will it resurrect a low cost performance market unfortunately. Which is precisely why I want it.

It has 2 main things going against it:
1) Numbers. HP is too low, especially when compared to the newe genesis coupe 2.0T(274) and mustang V6 (300). There is not a better car for the money than the Mustang V6 for out and out performance, and handling prowess and chuckability are not easily quantified on a spec sheet, and speed wins magazine comparos.
2) Trunk. It should have been a hatch, then you would see it potentially cannibalizing Mazdaspeed3 and any VAG 2.0T (GTI et al.) sales due to promise of subiyota reliability with the practicality.

The RSX did OK over 5 model years dropping from 25k US in 02 to 16k US by 06 for a 5 year old stale model with a light refresh, but you had things like the hatch, the premium badge, a lower level model, and auto transmission working for it. It could have continued too and done well had honda chose to address any of the owner's want list: HIDs, NAV, Ipod hookup, Brembos, and LSD (basically a JDM Type-R).

If the price point is too high this car will fail. I'm hopeful it doesn't and It shouldn't if they hold the following price points:
Suby Limited: $26.5k max, more like $26k - Top trim miata soft top is $26.8k, and I wouldn't go over that because they will be cross-shopped by some.
Suby Premium: $24k - Has to be under base wrx due to power and 2 less driven wheels
Scion FR-S: $22.5k - more expensive than a tC, but less than options missing from Suby premium general pricing

[NorCalRider]

I read a lot of auto forums and websites. In my opinion there are a lot more people interested in this car then you think. They had over 20k people sign up on the website to get more information about the FRS in just a months time. As long as they price this car properly it will sell well and will have a good lifespan.

[CSSM]

Originally Posted by duffman13

There is not a better car for the money than the Mustang V6 for out and out performance, and handling prowess and chuckability are not easily quantified on a spec sheet, and speed wins magazine comparos.

Camaro V6. 323hp, $20,000. Just sayin

[duffman13]

Originally Posted by CSSM

Camaro V6. 323hp, $20,000. Just sayin

Mustang's lower weight, sharper suspension, and better visibility give it the win in every comparo I've ever seen. Add the track pack and you get the better axle ratio and the same upgraded suspension as the GT and you're in another league.

Plus the camaro looks stupid

[tripjammer]

Originally Posted by duffman13

Going back to the OP, i see this as an interesting question.

I don't think this car will stick around long, nor will it resurrect a low cost performance market unfortunately. Which is precisely why I want it.

It has 2 main things going against it:
1) Numbers. HP is too low, especially when compared to the newe genesis coupe 2.0T(274) and mustang V6 (300). There is not a better car for the money than the Mustang V6 for out and out performance, and handling prowess and chuckability are not easily quantified on a spec sheet, and speed wins magazine comparos.
2) Trunk. It should have been a hatch, then you would see it potentially cannibalizing Mazdaspeed3 and any VAG 2.0T (GTI et al.) sales due to promise of subiyota reliability with the practicality.

The RSX did OK over 5 model years dropping from 25k US in 02 to 16k US by 06 for a 5 year old stale model with a light refresh, but you had things like the hatch, the premium badge, a lower level model, and auto transmission working for it. It could have continued too and done well had honda chose to address any of the owner's want list: HIDs, NAV, Ipod hookup, Brembos, and LSD (basically a JDM Type-R).

If the price point is too high this car will fail. I'm hopeful it doesn't and It shouldn't if they hold the following price points:
Suby Limited: $26.5k max, more like $26k - Top trim miata soft top is $26.8k, and I wouldn't go over that because they will be cross-shopped by some.
Suby Premium: $24k - Has to be under base wrx due to power and 2 less driven wheels
Scion FR-S: $22.5k - more expensive than a tC, but less than options missing from Suby premium general pricing

1) the Mustang V6 is really $24600, because you really have to get the V6 performance package which is $1999. That also includes a $500 rebate.

A FRS\BRZ will kill the Mustang V6 with the performance package on a autocross. Sure the mustang may have more HP but in the twisties there is no comparison.

2) The FRS\BRZ looks cool, because it is not a hatch. Also being a hatch would have made it heavier. There are no cool looking hatches except for maybe the 370Z and the corvette C6 (FR Hatch)

3) The price is not going to be high...Figure $23K for an FR-S with the bespoke. Still cheaper than a Mustang V6 with the performance package.

Your pricing looks good. I hope it comes through.

Updated pricing predictions..

Suby BRZ Limited: $26k
Suby BRZ Premium: $24k
Scion FR-S: $23K

[Guff]

Originally Posted by tripjammer

1) the Mustang V6 is really $24600, because you really have to get the V6 performance package which is $1999. That also includes a $500 rebate.

A FRS\BRZ will kill the Mustang V6 with the performance package on a autocross. Sure the mustang may have more HP but in the twisties there is no comparison.

2) The FRS\BRZ looks cool, because it is not a hatch. Also being a hatch would have made it heavier. There are no cool looking hatches except for maybe the 370Z and the corvette C6 (FR Hatch)

3) The price is not going to be high...Figure $23K for an FR-S with the bespoke. Still cheaper than a Mustang V6 with the performance package.

Your pricing looks good. I hope it comes through.

Updated pricing predictions..

Suby BRZ Limited: $26k
Suby BRZ Premium: $24k
Scion FR-S: $23K

If your pricing plan holds through, then even the Limited is not too inaccessible for many people. This makes it affordable across the board, really.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by tripjammer

1) the Mustang V6 is really $24600, because you really have to get the V6 performance package which is $1999. That also includes a $500 rebate.

A FRS\BRZ will kill the Mustang V6 with the performance package on a autocross. Sure the mustang may have more HP but in the twisties there is no comparison.

2) The FRS\BRZ looks cool, because it is not a hatch. Also being a hatch would have made it heavier. There are no cool looking hatches except for maybe the 370Z and the corvette C6 (FR Hatch)

3) The price is not going to be high...Figure $23K for an FR-S with the bespoke. Still cheaper than a Mustang V6 with the performance package.

Your pricing looks good. I hope it comes through.

Updated pricing predictions..

Suby BRZ Limited: $26k
Suby BRZ Premium: $24k
Scion FR-S: $23K

Did you know that a sporty shape can still have a hatch? My RSX have a low slung shape and it's a hatch. Not every hatch looks like a small minivan.

[nrclptcnsmniak]

All that matters to me is if I own one. If it flops it becomes a car that will turn into a classic. If it doesnt flop then it becomes a car with great success and lots of support. Either way doesnt bother me. Sometimes legends die before they can be made.

Either way I think its going to be a total success!

[duffman13]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Did you know that a sporty shape can still have a hatch? My RSX have a low slung shape and it's a hatch. Not every hatch looks like a small minivan.

QFT as another RSX owner. When I say hatch I mean fastback hatch like the RSX, Integra, and Corvette, not the wagon-esque rear of the 3 and GTI. FWIW I do like the 3 though, enough that I bought one for my wife 2 years ago.

All that said, this car should kill at autocross. Dial in 2 degrees negative camber up front, a degree in back, and throw some sticky tires on it, and it'll decimate all

even if we have to overnight parts from japan.

[miata]

Originally Posted by Snoopyalien24

No, I think Toyota did their homework. Why would one of the biggest names in the Automotive Industries hype up something willing to fail, having put so much time into it?

Start $21k - $22k and it will NOT fail

Remember what happened to the late MR2? It's a 100% Toyota car.

[miata]

Originally Posted by borge12

Also from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Miata :

If they're making 25k per year, they must not be doing too bad.

2006 was the first model year for the 3rd gen Miata. It's been waning with each successive generation.