FRS vs. MR-S (MR2 Spyder)

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

@ fantoni

Smaller package, 600-700lbs lighter, better weight distribution, lower CoG, MR layout. If I had said Lotus Elise instead of MR-S, I think you might have had less trouble understanding somehow.

tell me more about how a pontiac fiero is better than the frs. what you are doing is failing to paint the whole picture. execution never makes it into the stat sheet. the use of modern technology, materials and knowledge have to be paying dividends. youre not taking that into account. i totally get liking the mr2 more than the frs. it offers what is a more pure experience imo but i dont think its a better car.

also, i feel like more often than not, porsche will use double wishbones when making track cars.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by fatoni

tell me more about how a pontiac fiero is better than the frs. what you are doing is failing to paint the whole picture. execution never makes it into the stat sheet. the use of modern technology, materials and knowledge have to be paying dividends. youre not taking that into account. i totally get liking the mr2 more than the frs. it offers what is a more pure experience imo but i dont think its a better car.

also, i feel like more often than not, porsche will use double wishbones when making track cars.

You realize I'm talking purely about the chassis. I'm not a Fiero guy so maybe you can enlighten me/us on why the Fiero chassis fails compared to the FRS when perhaps it shouldn't and how those failures also exist in the MR-S and Lotus which would invalidate my understanding ofphysics. Please leave out any discussion of power, reliability, suspension tuning, tire choices, etc. Just the chassis please.

I really don't want this thread to devolve into typical FWD versus RWD BS. It has enough problems already w/ Mr. Miata.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Rampage

I was going to just stay out of this thread from now on because I come off as all fanboish about MY 2ZZ MR-S which admittedly I am. I just read this post today over on Spyderchat and I thought it really applied to the above quoted part of the discussion. The post was made by a member screen named Cobra who is a racer from South Africa with a ton of experience with the MR-S and Lotus with both the 2ZZ and K24 engines. Here is a post that he made a couple days ago in a thread about aother members 214 WHP NA 2ZZ :

"Interesting thread with excellent dyno numbers. With us being 6500 ft above sea level we only see such numbers with altitude correction, which makes it a bit of a guessing game.

I added itb's from the 4sge engine with modified runners. We later opened the itb up to 47mm and also played with runner sizes but got little gains above the 45's and I suspect the exhaust restricted the system.

i can advise that itb's with 2 sets of injectors will make a huge difference. The 2nd set placed outside the trumpets provides approx 5% whp extra throughout the rpm range!

I basically had the same parts as Kortik untill I dropped a valve. This engine does not like continuous and hard racing at above 8,000 rpm. It will take it but it but will not last a full year of track racing at 10k. Dropping valves with ferrea valves causes a fair amount of damage. But if it is used for street, drags and the odd track day it will be awesome. The 2zz is a wonderfull engine. I am now racing a Lotus with Honda K24, and would give it a last go after destroying several engines on the track. The 2Zz is much more reliable and it is a pity it is not a larger ci engine.

I sold my spyder to a friend and still anticipate building a 3.5l V6 track car (spyder) as a new project. Reliability with a high revving 4cyl becomes an issue and ends up being expensive in the long run. But work and a cobra project, and repairing the &*^ K24 currently ties me up (grrr).

well done!"

all that post was saying is that if lotus wanted to use a honda engine instead of a toyota/yamaha engine, it would have been just as reliable in the elise. also its fine if youre a fanboi, as long as what you say is backed by some form of knowledge so dont sweat it.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

You realize I'm talking purely about the chassis. I'm not a Fiero guy so maybe you can enlighten me/us on why the Fiero chassis fails compared to the FRS when perhaps it shouldn't and how those failures also exist in the MR-S and Lotus which would invalidate my understanding ofphysics. Please leave out any discussion of power, reliability, suspension tuning, tire choices, etc. Just the chassis please.

I really don't want this thread to devolve into typical FWD versus RWD BS. It has enough problems already w/ Mr. Miata.

i cant say for a fact that the frs is better than those cars because i dont have sufficient data to make the claim. if i was a betting man, my money would be the car that was designed with a decade more technology and data. the fact that the lotus isnt the mrs proves that there is significantly more going on that the spectrum of "physics" you are understanding. build materials, structural rigidity, inherent suspension design, the ability to fit rubber under the wells, a fixed roof, and better aero are all things in favor of the frs. im not invalidating what you say, im just saying that its not nearly everything to be said and your conclusions arent really based on enough data to be anything more than suggestive.

[Anaxilus]

Everything I claimed about weight, CoG, dimensions, weight distribution, Polar moment of Inertia are all objective facts as are their interactions with gravity and physics. If you consider pure verifiable specifications as subjective and unscientific data, I don't have an answer for you either. They also make sense especially when those non-data points as you seem to interpret, appear to be confirmed by back to back driving experience which actually is subjective. Maybe your definition of 'superior chassis' differs from mine. Perhaps a Nissan GTR is a 'superior' chassis in your view?

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by fatoni

all that post was saying is that if lotus wanted to use a honda engine instead of a toyota/yamaha engine, it would have been just as reliable in the elise. also its fine if youre a fanboi, as long as what you say is backed by some form of knowledge so dont sweat it.

Wow! I did not get that out of that post at all. What I read was that he killed his 10K RPM 2ZZ after trying to race it a whole season and has since switched to the K24 which he has broken several times now. He states that the 2ZZ is a wonderful engine and is "much more reliable" and bemoans the fact that the 2ZZ is not a larger displacement engine. That seems to indicate to me is that the reason he went with the Honda was because it has more performance potential due to larger displacement but it is not as reliable thus his "&*^ K24 " curse at the end of the post that he has to fix the K engine again.

I posted that because Honda reliability has been mentioned a few times as a reason to do the K20-24 swap over the 2ZZ. At least in this racers experience, that has not been the case. I have also outlined the other drawbacks to the K into MR-S swaps. In my mind, there is only one advantage to that swap and that is more HP potential due to increased displacement. You have to put that goal above all else and let it outweigh all the advantages of staying with the 2ZZ swap. I might be able to do that for a track car but there is no way I would do it in a street car that is filling the same role as a street driven FR-S.

The FR-S has five advantages over the 2ZZ MR-S
1. More space which makes it easier to live with on a daily basis
2. Warranty (unless you stupidly mod it away)
3. Better styling (yes, in most people eyes it is prettier)
4. Better aftermarket support
5. Higher top speed (better aero)

In every other performance category I can think of the 2ZZ MR-S will win.

See how I tried to steer that back to the original topic?

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Everything I claimed about weight, CoG, dimensions, weight distribution, Polar moment of Inertia are all objective facts as are their interactions with gravity and physics. If you consider pure verifiable specifications as subjective and unscientific data, I don't have an answer for you either. They also make sense especially when those non-data points as you seem to interpret, appear to be confirmed by back to back driving experience which actually is subjective. Maybe your definition of 'superior chassis' differs from mine. Perhaps a Nissan GTR is a 'superior' chassis in your view?

the gtr is likely a superior chassis. i would imagine that it is much better about keeping your tires on the ground as its equipped to put power down. im not saying that the things you are saying are wrong, im just saying that you dont say enough to come to a conclusion. i would say the primary quality you look for in a chassis is rigidity and you dont know how rigid either of these cars are.

my thought process is that they had more money, more resources and more knowledge when they made this car. i dont imagine they would make an inferior chassis in that circumstance.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Rampage

Wow! I did not get that out of that post at all. What I read was that he killed his 10K RPM 2ZZ after trying to race it a whole season and has since switched to the K24 which he has broken several times now. He states that the 2ZZ is a wonderful engine and is "much more reliable" and bemoans the fact that the 2ZZ is not a larger displacement engine. That seems to indicate to me is that the reason he went with the Honda was because it has more performance potential due to larger displacement but it is not as reliable thus his "&*^ K24 " curse at the end of the post that he has to fix the K engine again.

I posted that because Honda reliability has been mentioned a few times as a reason to do the K20-24 swap over the 2ZZ. At least in this racers experience, that has not been the case. I have also outlined the other drawbacks to the K into MR-S swaps. In my mind, there is only one advantage to that swap and that is more HP potential due to increased displacement. You have to put that goal above all else and let it outweigh all the advantages of staying with the 2ZZ swap. I might be able to do that for a track car but there is no way I would do it in a street car that is filling the same role as a street driven FR-S.

The FR-S has five advantages over the 2ZZ MR-S
1. More space which makes it easier to live with on a daily basis
2. Warranty (unless you stupidly mod it away)
3. Better styling (yes, in most people eyes it is prettier)
4. Better aftermarket support
5. Higher top speed (better aero)

In every other performance category I can think of the 2ZZ MR-S will win.

See how I tried to steer that back to the original topic?

im not going to pass judgement on two engines (that are clearly not stock) while only having information on one of the engines. i will say that i think that the k20 is a better motor than the 2zz.

back on topic, i think there are more advantages over the mr2

[hmong337]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

@ hmong

Lol, lack of double wishbones keeping you from buying that Porsche huh? ROFLMAO.

You think the MR-S is ugly, I think your spoiler is a ridiculous. Seems fair.

I'll let 99% of the automotive world handle you BUD. You're living in your own world of LS powered Miatas in a MR-S/FRS thread. Nuff said.

Welcome to reality BUD. LS powered Miatas are real and FRS/BRZ's are better than your late model MR2 with that turd slushbox SMT that you have.

I'm sure Toyota engineers have progressed in the 10+ years since the last sports car. The FRS/BRZ is BETTER. I don't know who you're trying to convince but the truth is that the MR-S with the 1zzfe is a gutless but wicked handling machine. With the SMT, it's even more gutless LOL. Who are you kidding?! The OP stated that he wanted one with a 2ZZGE. I agree. The MR-S needs more power. Your fuel economy motor is a complete turd and will never climb to the ranks of an FRS/BRZ till you at least get a 2ZZGE or better yet, a K20A K24A. Even still, you can't fix ugly no matter what you do.

[Anaxilus]

Originally Posted by hmong337

Welcome to reality BUD. LS powered Miatas are real and FRS/BRZ's are better than your late model MR2 with that turd slushbox SMT that you have.

I'm sure Toyota engineers have progressed in the 10+ years since the last sports car. The FRS/BRZ is BETTER. I don't know who you're trying to convince but the truth is that the MR-S with the 1zzfe is a gutless but wicked handling machine. With the SMT, it's even more gutless LOL. Who are you kidding?! The OP stated that he wanted one with a 2ZZGE. I agree. The MR-S needs more power. Your fuel economy motor is a complete turd and will never climb to the ranks of an FRS/BRZ till you at least get a 2ZZGE or better yet, a K20A K24A. Even still, you can't fix ugly no matter what you do.

1-LS powered Miatas are illegal and could get you tossed into jail, or wrapped around a tree w/ a smashed face because you have a completely mismatched chassis to the engine. I've seen plenty of C6 Corvettes w/ problems controlling the LS. Stupid idea for people w/ 'issues' if you ask me. I guess a supercharged 427 swapped into a rat rod would be a superior car in your view too. Ugh...

2-10 years is supposed to guarantee something in your fantasyland is it? You are sure how? Magic 8-ball? The FA20 and 86 is so superior to the 2JZGTE and the Supra is it? Tada pretty much taken every trick Honda used on the NSX and learned from them and put them in the 86? 10 years of experience is why they put Michelin Primacys on the 86? To make it go faster?? I'd explain why this isn't always the case but I'm sure you'd just ignore it and ramble on about some other personal insult or flame as you do in every thread.

3-I never asked you your opinion of the 1zz which to you makes it inferior but then you go on to acknowledge the superior handling of the MR which was the whole point talking about chassis comparisons. Funny hypocrisy. You also seem to be completely oblivious to the number of boosted options for the 1zz-fe. Obviously never been to Spyderchat. All options which I've passed on as I was looking at more exotic options like the 2gr-fe, Renesis or Hayabusa V-8. Projects I've halted as I've decided to sell the car over the next three years and replace w/ something nearly 3x's the price. Even w/ the 'gutless' 1zz-fe, my MR will disappear a FRS in street driving, no problem. Even w/ the supposed crap slushbox. I know this down on power thing is hard for you to understand as you bought your gen2 MR for drag racing. Maybe watch some initial D when u get a chance.

4-A proper facelifted MRS w/ hardtop and the works is a beautiful machine. People ask about my Porsche all the time. Even if they didn't, I respectfully value your opinion not at all. Not to mention a GT300 MR is one of the best things you can look at on the road or track. Gorgeous. IMHO.

5-This is like the 4th thread I've seen you come into, spout flame, instigate people w/ insults and your internet badboy e-peen attitude and I'm not at all impressed. You throw shit out there and cry when it's hurled back, too bad. Be more respectful if you can't successfully present or defend an argument or leave. I've shot off a PM to a mod, so hopefully you'll stop bullying your way into threads and crapping on them.

Welcome to reality. Indeed...

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by hmong337

It's just fun saying that it's a "Corolla motor" to get you guys all riled up LOL. The 4AGE is defnitely the acception. Great motor! But we're not talking about the AW11 here. But the 1ZZFE, ummmm... not so much. FE for economy!

Topic is about a 2zzge, also a corolla engine.

Originally Posted by hmong337

How does that contradict anything?! I'd be all over the MR-S in terms of a performance stand point. But the ugliness and lack of storage still holds me back from getting one to be my street car.

You didn't exactly take balance into anything you said prior to that, they were predominantly HP based.
SW20 was exactly that out of all 3 generations.

If people bough the 86 for it's fun handling and driving dynamics, they would also be happy with the 2zz MR-S. If they bought it because it is cool and want to do stop light/street races, you would not be cross shopping a 86 with and MR-S.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by hmong337

I'm sure Toyota engineers have progressed in the 10+ years since the last sports car. The FRS/BRZ is BETTER.

This, I am not so sure about. Toyota has made advancements in emission controls and gadgets/gizmos that people seems to want in their cars these days. And the radios are better now. But other than that, where is the progress?

The direct injection system was created more for emissions than performance.
The car is much heavier. The excuse for them missing their goal of 2500LBs is always given as emissions and safety.
The stock 2ZZ matches the horsepower per liter of the 13 year newer FA20.
The highest HP I have seen on a 2ZZ with bolt ons and stock ECU is 183WHP (At DDPR)
The highest with bolt ons and a PFC+tunes is 197 WHP
The highest HP I have seen for a FR-S/BRZ with bolt ons and tune are two that produced 200WHP
All of these are on 92-93 pump gas.
Strip the body panels off a MR-S and you will see it is an amazing machine in its simplicity and functionality. It is also very solidly built and has proven to be very crashworthy in accidents
I do have a FR-S in the family for comparison and the MR-S is built at least as well as the FT86
As I have stated before I have seen 38.3 MPG highway and I was not trying to be economical at the time. I have a 6 speed with 4.59 final drive. I have not seen a FR-S or BRZ get that MPG yet but I may have missed it.

Toyota had all the parts to build the 2ZZ Spyder 13 years ago. Where then is all the progress in those years?

The one thing they have definitely improved upon is low end torque in the FA20 which is ironic considering that so many complain about the torque dip. I seldom notice the lack of low end torque in the 2ZZ. Maybe that is because I am only accelerating 2200LBs.

If emissions and gadgets are what you are calling progress then I agree with you. If you are referring to performance gains then please explain your views on this.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Yes you are, those numbers are completely wrong on a SMT which has already adapted/broken in rather than out of the box in the hands of an auto journalist for a few hours. The SMT has definitely gotten faster over time, it was slow new. My SMT and a friends are easily in the 6-7 sec range 0-60. Not sure what year MR-S those numbers are from either and whether it had the older ECU, pre-cat failures, underbracing, LSD and weaker front suspension mounting points found in the non facelifts. Rear tire size was also changed.

Let's take SMT out of the equation then:

M/T TEST RESULTS: MR-S (5mt) / FR-S (6mt)
Zero to 60 mph: 7.2 sec / 6.2 sec
Zero to 80 mph: 12.6 sec / 10.4 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 15.4 sec @ 88 mph / 14.8 sec @ 94 mph
Braking, 60–0 mph: 112 ft / 118 ft

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/112_0102_mazda_miata_toyota_mr2_spyder/viewall.html
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1207_high_performance_two_door_comparison/viewall.html

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

My stock SMT MRS kills the FRS/BRZ in acceleration, braking, handling and every metric except for cargo space and MPG.

C/D TEST RESULTS: MR-S (SMT) / FR-S (6mt)
Zero to 60 mph: 8.2 sec / 6.4 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 23.0 sec / 16.6 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 8.5 sec / 8.1 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 16.2 sec @ 86 mph / 14.9 sec @ 95 mph
Top speed (drag limited): 123 mph / 143 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 162 ft / 166 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad 0.88 g / 0.96 g

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take-road-test
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...fr-s-specs.pdf

[regal]

Originally Posted by hmong337
I'm sure Toyota engineers have progressed in the 10+ years since the last sports car. The FRS/BRZ is BETTER.

Yes this is a very naïve post. Since ODBII in '96 newer and newer released engines have gotten less track worthy (discounting supercars.) The move toward better emmisions ULEV's etc is very analogous to what happened in the 70's where reliability took a nose dive. No one can convince me that a '75 small block chevy is better than a '69 small block chevy. Technology advancements were always good to kids growing up in the 80's and 90's, but things have changed.

Same thing with 2zz vs FA20. The FA20 is proving to be a grenade on the track and will probably be Toyotas first disposable engine in a long long time.

Now there is hope, maybe a good track tune (not a tune for +5 hp that tuners are selling) but a real track tune that keeps the engine well away from detonation and away from overheating will put the FA20 in the bullet proof category of the 80's and 90's Subaru boxers.

But I'm frankly losing patience, I belonged to Spyderchat for years but held off buying one waiting on the '86. As soon as the '86 was released I jumped head first. But now a 2zz Spyder just seems so appealing and smarter after my year with the FR-S and its engine issues.

as far as curb appeal I think the MR-S looks great especially with a hard top, not as nice as an FR-S but it is so much lighter and mid engine. It definitely had the better styling compared to the Miata and S2k.