FRS vs. MR-S (MR2 Spyder)

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by fatoni

that makes a lot of sense although if youre doing things like lotus, a supercharged k24 would be at least as reliable. if youre doing things like lotus then you end up with a 45k mrs

Stop going off tangent, the comment was about your unreliable claim about supercharged 2zz.

Now we are over that topic, lets start on your estimated costs, feel free to list the break down for your estimation.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Dude, you are so full of it, you have no idea what you are talking about. My stock SMT MRS kills the FRS/BRZ in acceleration, braking, handling and every metric except for cargo space and MPG. Your inexperience w/ the MRS is plain to see for anyone here who has driven both. Even once my FRS gets down to 2550-2600lbs and 250hp, it will likely never out drive or outperform my MRS except maybe in a drag race. Maybe....

Am I missing something here?

C/D TEST RESULTS: MR-S (SMT) / FR-S (6mt)
Zero to 60 mph: 8.2 sec / 6.4 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 23.0 sec / 16.6 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 8.5 sec / 8.1 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 16.2 sec @ 86 mph / 14.9 sec @ 95 mph
Top speed (drag limited): 123 mph / 143 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 162 ft / 166 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad 0.88 g / 0.96 g

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take-road-test
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...fr-s-specs.pdf

[autobrz]

if the mr-s had double wishbones all around like the lotus, it wouldn't have cost that much more. I just don't understand why Toyota reserves the better suspension for their more expensive cars like the supra and the lexus IS, GS and LS...

[hmong337]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

They drove my MR-S did they? I didn't even know. Thx. So you agree about 0-60, 60-0, 80-0, lateral G, etc which is why you feel the need to cherry pick. A stock FRS/BRZ will never hang w/ a stock MR-S on the street, period. I understand the need for you to be rude when you have no idea or experience to reference other than a 2700lb gen 2 w/ a bench seat for a spoiler.

Woah buddy LOL. Relax! Why so butt-hurt?

My cousin's friend has a 2002 MR-S white with a tan top. I drove it. It definitely handles and I'm not disputing the performance aspect of the car other than it being completely gutless. The lightness is great though. Just like the AW11. But they're not my taste in styling and is not very usable as a daily driver/grocery getter.

I don't know where you're coming with all these personal attacks on my sw20 LOL. You drive an SMT autotragic version of the MR-S; essentially the the shittiest of all MR-S's. Shall I say more? And as far as I know, the gutless BEAMS version of the fatty SW20 isn't too much slower than the MR-S.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzKJ4B70-HM"]JDM Integra Type R vs MR-S and Rivals Tsukuba battle 2000 - YouTube[/ame]

The gen3 3sgte version... well, that's another topic.

Better watch what you're saying budd... this is an FRS/BRZ/GT86 forum. I'll let the 99% here handle you.

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

A stock FRS/BRZ will never hang w/ a stock MR-S on the street, period.

[hmong337]

Originally Posted by autobrz

if the mr-s had double wishbones all around like the lotus, it wouldn't have cost that much more. I just don't understand why Toyota reserves the better suspension for their more expensive cars like the supra and the lexus IS, GS and LS...

So true! I would be all over the MR-S if it was double wishbone equipped on all corners!

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by s2d4

Feel free to list the cost break down for your estimation.

yeah that was more or less just me talking about how much an elise is. i know its more (less) car than the mr2 but still, doing things in the same fashion as a car company is not cheap at all. the only reason i wrote about this thought process was because it sounded like someone was implying that the 2zz swap is better than a k swap because his friend had problems with a supercharged k24.

[s2d4]

Originally Posted by hmong337

The lightness is great though. Just like the AW11.

The AW11s came with the corolla motor which you scoffed at and was car of the year in 1985. It was the first cheap, lightweight, RWD sport car compared to the other MR sports cars of that era. Notice the similarities to the GT86?

You are a horse power guy which is great but you are completely different to the AW11 or the ZZW30 owners so the goal and opinions will definitely differ.

Originally Posted by hmong337

So true! I would be all over the MR-S if it was double wishbone equipped on all corners!

This completely contradicts just about everything you've mentioned, at least it is now more in line with someone who would cross shop an 86 with an MR-S

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by autobrz

if the mr-s had double wishbones all around like the lotus, it wouldn't have cost that much more. I just don't understand why Toyota reserves the better suspension for their more expensive cars like the supra and the lexus IS, GS and LS...

Heavier & taller cars benefit more from the camber curve of an SLA double-wishbone setup than lighter cars. Could be one reason.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

Heavier & taller cars benefit more from the camber curve of an SLA double-wishbone setup than lighter cars. Could be one reason.

It was to save space, I believe. The car has a surprising amount of open space.

[hmong337]

Originally Posted by s2d4

The AW11s came with the corolla motor which you scoffed at and was car of the year in 1985. It was the first cheap, lightweight, RWD sport car compared to the other MR sports cars of that era. Notice the similarities to the GT86?


This completely contradicts just about everything you've mentioned, at least it is now more in line with someone who would cross shop an 86 with an MR-S

It's just fun saying that it's a "Corolla motor" to get you guys all riled up LOL. The 4AGE is defnitely the acception. Great motor! But we're not talking about the AW11 here. But the 1ZZFE, ummmm... not so much. FE for economy!

How does that contradict anything?! I'd be all over the MR-S in terms of a performance stand point. But the ugliness and lack of storage still holds me back from getting one to be my street car.

[Anaxilus]

Yes you are, those numbers are completely wrong on a SMT which has already adapted/broken in rather than out of the box in the hands of an auto journalist for a few hours. The SMT has definitely gotten faster over time, it was slow new. My SMT and a friends are easily in the 6-7 sec range 0-60. Not sure what year MR-S those numbers are from either and whether it had the older ECU, pre-cat failures, underbracing, LSD and weaker front suspension mounting points found in the non facelifts. Rear tire size was also changed. You also forgot to compare weight, dimensions and steering feel/feedback. For all the 86's great CoG, the MR-S is lower still. It's a poor mans Lotus, the FR-S is not. I also recall seeing .92 on the skidpad for a stock MR-S and 101 feet 60-0 before but that was more than 8 years ago.

Fact is, I have a stock MR-S SMT as does a friend who bought his at the same time I did, last 2005 MY. I have a FRS, he has driven an FRS, neither of us find the FRS equal in any measure except for top end power/speed. We will both end up owning both but that's how the comparo works out driven back to back. Not 12-13 years apart in completely different conditions w/ different drivers. His is bone stock, mine has Volk CE28Ns, lighter battery and no spare w/ lots of pretty Carbing bracing. He drove the FRS MT, mine is an AT fyi.

Comparing a 2zz MR-S is the same as a 1zz MR-S except w/ less power. The chassis and layout is just superior in physics compared to the FRS. Simple.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Anaxilus

Yes you are, those numbers are completely wrong on a SMT which has already adapted/broken in rather than out of the box in the hands of an auto journalist for a few hours. The SMT has definitely gotten faster over time, it was slow new. My SMT and a friends are easily in the 6-7 sec range 0-60. Not sure what year MR-S those numbers are from either and whether it had the older ECU, pre-cat failures, underbracing, LSD and weaker front suspension mounting points found in the non facelifts. Rear tire size was also changed. You also forgot to compare weight, dimensions and steering feel/feedback. For all the 86's great CoG, the MR-S is lower still. It's a poor mans Lotus, the FR-S is not. I also recall seeing .92 on the skidpad for a stock MR-S and 101 feet 60-0 before but that was more than 8 years ago.

Fact is, I have a stock MR-S SMT as does a friend who bought his at the same time I did, last 2005 MY. I have a FRS, he has driven an FRS, neither of us find the FRS equal in any measure except for top end power/speed. We will both end up owning both but that's how the comparo works out driven back to back. Not 12-13 years apart in completely different conditions w/ different drivers. His is bone stock, mine has Volk CE28Ns, lighter battery and no spare w/ lots of pretty Carbing bracing. He drove the FRS MT, mine is an AT fyi.

Comparing a 2zz MR-S is the same as a 1zz MR-S except w/ less power. The chassis and layout is just superior in physics compared to the FRS. Simple.

youre going to need to explain that to me because it doesnt seem that simple

[Anaxilus]

@ fantoni

Smaller package, 600-700lbs lighter, better weight distribution, lower CoG, MR layout. If I had said Lotus Elise instead of MR-S, I think you might have had less trouble understanding somehow.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by fatoni

that makes a lot of sense although if youre doing things like lotus, a supercharged k24 would be at least as reliable. if youre doing things like lotus then you end up with a 45k mrs

I was going to just stay out of this thread from now on because I come off as all fanboish about MY 2ZZ MR-S which admittedly I am. I just read this post today over on Spyderchat and I thought it really applied to the above quoted part of the discussion. The post was made by a member screen named Cobra who is a racer from South Africa with a ton of experience with the MR-S and Lotus with both the 2ZZ and K24 engines. Here is a post that he made a couple days ago in a thread about aother members 214 WHP NA 2ZZ :

"Interesting thread with excellent dyno numbers. With us being 6500 ft above sea level we only see such numbers with altitude correction, which makes it a bit of a guessing game.

I added itb's from the 4sge engine with modified runners. We later opened the itb up to 47mm and also played with runner sizes but got little gains above the 45's and I suspect the exhaust restricted the system.

i can advise that itb's with 2 sets of injectors will make a huge difference. The 2nd set placed outside the trumpets provides approx 5% whp extra throughout the rpm range!

I basically had the same parts as Kortik untill I dropped a valve. This engine does not like continuous and hard racing at above 8,000 rpm. It will take it but it but will not last a full year of track racing at 10k. Dropping valves with ferrea valves causes a fair amount of damage. But if it is used for street, drags and the odd track day it will be awesome. The 2zz is a wonderfull engine. I am now racing a Lotus with Honda K24, and would give it a last go after destroying several engines on the track. The 2Zz is much more reliable and it is a pity it is not a larger ci engine.

I sold my spyder to a friend and still anticipate building a 3.5l V6 track car (spyder) as a new project. Reliability with a high revving 4cyl becomes an issue and ends up being expensive in the long run. But work and a cobra project, and repairing the &*^ K24 currently ties me up (grrr).

well done!"