Full throttle Electric Supercharger Build Thread

[Robftss]

Originally Posted by Wonderbar

Without coming across as insulting, I think we are agreeing in a circular manner with slightly different details.

In theory long as the system stays sealed and uses a recirculating bov setup, then the pressure stays an even constant. But both superchargers and turbochargers compress air the same way and as long as its a sealed system they work the same way. They both have the same effects at negating altitude for an internal combustion motor simply because they are forcing more air into the same volume, essentially making the thinner air at altitude a non issue and keeping the power output of the motor in a range of normalcy.

The reason for two-step superchargers was to prevent over boosting at low altitudes since boost is mechanically controlled through gear ratio as opposed to pressure release valves.

Roughly 10psi at sea level is the same as 30psi at 30,000 feet. Pretty good section on altitude effects.

Again, I think we are agreed, just having a discussion on the topic.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercharger

Since the E-charger doesn't have a bov or anything, once the air is compressed and blown towards the TB, it will stay the same pressure even on throttle let off. The issue you run into then is compressor back surge, which is a whole separate issue, but I think since the charger disengages when not powered, I assume the air pressure will just back itself into the airbox through the compressor.

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/...ORTECH+SYSTEMS

See: 'High altitude operation' at the bottom of your systems website.

BOV's remove excess pressure, they do not 'bleed' to maintain pressure during boost at various altitudes.

[Wonderbar]

Originally Posted by Robftss

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/...ORTECH+SYSTEMS

See: 'High altitude operation' at the bottom of your systems website.

BOV's remove excess pressure, they do not 'bleed' to maintain pressure during boost at various altitudes.

Yes, which is why is my earlier statement I said supercharged and turbocharged cars lose about 5% power in Colorado Springs when compared to the exact same car at sea level. If you go by the general 1psi equals about 10-15hp, that would come up to 20-30Hp by both my and vortechs references. Colorado Springs is at 6400ft asl.

I do appreciate the link, however.

Another .5psi at sea level coming from 3500 feet seems very realistic and another 10hp on the dyno seems about right mathematically. Could see more with higher octane gas and a more aggressive tune. Again, I'm actually being positive towards the product.

Bov's don't, but waste gates do. I should've been more specific in my reference.

[Robftss]

Originally Posted by Wonderbar

Yes, which is why is my earlier statement I said supercharged and turbocharged cars lose about 5% power in Colorado Springs when compared to the exact same car at sea level. If you go by the general 1psi equals about 10-15hp, that would come up to 20-30Hp by both my and vortechs references. Colorado Springs is at 6400ft asl.

I do appreciate the link, however.

Another .5psi at sea level coming from 3500 feet seems very realistic and another 10hp on the dyno seems about right mathematically. Could see more with higher octane gas and a more aggressive tune. Again, I'm actually being positive towards the product.

Bov's don't, but waste gates do. I should've been more specific in my reference.

To be clear, using Colorado Springs @ a typical 12 psi station pressure.
And using FI cars that make 5 psi gauge @ Sea Level (14.5 psi), and you drive them to Colorado Spring.

1) An exhaust driven turbocharger with wastegate manifold reference will lose 14.5% power.

2) An N/A car will lose 20.8 % power.

3) A belt driven supercharger will lose 20.8 % power. (PR is fixed).

Turbo's and superchargers are not the same when compensating for changes in atmospheric pressure.


As far as this system at SL coming down from 3500 ft. It will make the same HP/TQ numbers as it does here on the dyno. The difference is they are uncorrected @ SL and real output numbers. It will not make 10 more HP on a SL dyno, it will make the nearly same gains, the gauge pressure will be higher, but the pressure ratio will be similar.

[Wonderbar]

I do want to apologize because this is going down a whole new road that's completely off topic from the thread.

I'm all for starting an actually thread on the differences between exhaust driven turbos and belt driven superchargers.

There is also a difference between the three types of superchargers and the way they interact with the atmosphere. Most notably positive displacement in comparison to centrifugal because of where the air is compressed.

As for the actual topic, I'd say push it a bit further than just a small and very specific application. Different "kits" with different options. It does make power, it is cheaper, it is an option for a modest budget.

[fenton]

Race with the 135i coming tonight.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta

[fenton]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOkBIkPjNCM&feature="]Supercharged FRS BRZ vs BMW 135i - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOEpA5yAAwI&feature="]Supercharged FRS BRZ vs BMW 135i round 2 - YouTube[/ame]

[fenton]

A little backround on the video's

We opted to start the BMW in 3rd with the FRS in 2nd. Reason being as the BMW has a massive torque band and lets be honest the FRS needs a little help

BMW has the ability to compensate for altitude via its electronic wastegate, the FRS with echarger does not.

Once aero becomes the limiting factor the BMW pulls hard as it has at least 70-90 hp more the the wheels.

[OICU812]

You're so close to me, I'd like to see this in person one day!!

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by Wonderbar

I'm all for starting an actually thread on the differences between exhaust driven turbos and belt driven superchargers.

Superchargers don't make up for altitude. Only turbo's do that because the boost that is entering the motor is tied to a turbo that is controlled by a wastegate that will keep a certain set pressure. This wastegate looks for a certain manifold pressure and tries to maintain it irregardless of what atmospheric pressure you are at.

High altitude has less pressure to begin with so a turbo will spin harder to make, say 10 psi at 6000ft. How does it work harder? The wastegate keeps shut untill manifold pressure reaches the set point. This set point is harder to reach at altitude. This set up would still make 10 psi at sea level, but the turbo wouldn't be working as hard.

A supercharger has no such mechanism to "keep the same pressure" in the manifold. A supercharged system that makes 10 psi at sea level would make, for example, 7 psi at high altitude. There is no wastegate to allow the supercharger to work harder to maintain 10 psi.

You can think about it like this:

A turbo can be made to work harder in order to maintain a set manifold pressure. A belt driven supercharger cannot. A belt driven supercharger works "X amount" and cannot work more than X amount unless you rev higher or change the pulley so that it works X + Y amount.

Ex.
X amount of work = 10 psi at sea level
X amount of work = 7 psi at 6000 ft

[PantsDants]

Originally Posted by fenton

Its a nitrous style WOT switch engage by physical contact of the accelerator pedal with the switch.

As for your other question, a window switch with 3000 engagement will not get rid of the CEL.

Yes you probably wont get a CEL in first or second but in third and greater going WOT at 3000 to 4000 will result in the CEL coming on. I drove the car like this for 3 weeks and it didnt have any ill effects other than the light coming on.

The tune gets ride of the CEL for good though.

So will "the tune" (with ecutek/BRZedit/something else) come bundled with the kit? I understand that could substantially increase the cost up front, but it preserves the plug and play aspect that I'm sure most noobs like myself would appreciate. Or are there plans to offer two versions of the kit?

[Ingen]

Originally Posted by PantsDants

So will "the tune" (with ecutek/BRZedit/something else) come bundled with the kit? I understand that could substantially increase the cost up front, but it preserves the plug and play aspect that I'm sure most noobs like myself would appreciate. Or are there plans to offer two versions of the kit?

Silly question here but if the cel doesn't hurt anything do you really need a tune? Do you care if it's there? Because tunes are expensive and I have had check engine lights before lol.

[xjohnx]

Originally Posted by Ingen

Silly question here but if the cel doesn't hurt anything do you really need a tune? Do you care if it's there? Because tunes are expensive and I have had check engine lights before lol.

You know what else is expensive? New motors.

If you're going to do it, be safe and put a tune on it. Maybe wait for OpenFlash Tablet or use BRZedit if price is a concern.

[ft_sjo]

Originally Posted by fenton

A little backround on the video's

We opted to start the BMW in 3rd with the FRS in 2nd. Reason being as the BMW has a massive torque band and lets be honest the FRS needs a little help

BMW has the ability to compensate for altitude via its electronic wastegate, the FRS with echarger does not.

Once aero becomes the limiting factor the BMW pulls hard as it has at least 70-90 hp more the the wheels.

I assume those videos were just for fun and not meant to prove performance?

[Wonderbar]

Originally Posted by fenton

A little backround on the video's

We opted to start the BMW in 3rd with the FRS in 2nd. Reason being as the BMW has a massive torque band and lets be honest the FRS needs a little help

BMW has the ability to compensate for altitude via its electronic wastegate, the FRS with echarger does not.

Once aero becomes the limiting factor the BMW pulls hard as it has at least 70-90 hp more the the wheels.

... :face palm: