BRZ after Cayman S and M3... is it a downgrade? NOW WITH VIDEO!

[s5pitfire]

I'm at work but will watch that FRS/BRZ top gear review when I get home again. But in the review I remember it sounded "meh"... like said, not as good and race-like as a honda v-tec engine (my buddy had a 07 civic si with I/H/E), and nothing like even a stock WRX or STi motor. I was disappointed because that boxer rumble is one of my favorite sounding engines, the way it burbles, sounds as deep as a v6, you can sort of hear the pistons gliding back and forth and can actually hear physics of the pistons and engine


OP: thanks for all of the compairson, i'm going to check out your video review later. Best handling cars i've driven were S2000, early 90's miata, and RX8... makes my car feel like a huge boat.



about the power it's just too bad they couldnt squeeze out a few more ponies. Both the S2000 and RX8 have nice 240hp and rev 1,500 more rpm than the FRS, but have basically the same torque (unless turbo'd, every 4 cylinder i've come across only has 150-160 tq). I know 200hp and 151 tq might be a good amount for this car, but that's when you're throwing it around corners. If i'm getting on the highway, the car won't scare or excite me much unless it weighs 2,200 lbs. My old v6 (sohc 3000GT) had 161hp and 185tq and was quite sluggish.


edit: read a few comments on this page (similar to reading a magazine backward ) and im not sure how you cant use your power. I use expensive premium gas, I really only want to get on it 2 or 3 times per day. Not only is going WOT guzzling your gas, but you can wreck or get a speeding ticket. I commute and the highway is jammed pack, and we all slow down to 10-30mph sometimes, then speed up. When speeding up, I let the person in front of me get about 10 car lengths ahead, then, Even at 1/2 throttle in 2nd and into 3rd, my 285 tires break lose.

[Symmetrical]

It's interesting that people are even cross shopping a BRZ with a Cayman.

Says more about the BRZ than it does the Cayman IMO.

If I had the money, I'd go with a Cayman S... But since I don't, I'm perfectly more than happy with my BRZ lol

[s5pitfire]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

^^




Guess I'll have to take another look at my car? I always figured the axle centerline was directly underneath the shock towers. Are they angled forward? Otherwise I still don't see how that works. My S2000's entire engine was behind the shock towers.

i apologize if you already mentioned it, but why did you move on from your S2000? what did you like most and dislike most?

i put a clutch in an early one (01 model?) and drove it, it was fun and super nimble, but having low end torque to play with when putting around town is what I want, rather than having to rev it to 9000 rpm if I want some fun.

i'm a car nut and am going to force myself to not go from sporty car to sporty car every couple of years... it'd become an addiction and i'd never be satisfied.


quote edit:

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

You know the Cayman is my favorite sports car under 100k now. But only because of this 2014 update! Every Cayman prior to it looks funny to me. But I can see where the BRZ Limited is still a greater deal compared to the Porsche.

[snip]

Holy smokes.. I just looked up the '14 cayman S and it is probably one of the best looking cars out there. The FRSBRZ looks really really good imo, and turns my head, but obviously the porsche just provides more emotion (probably because we all know its a PORSCHE and is extremely capable). Oh, and I see one maybe once every month.

But the 325hp/272tq numbers are a bit disappointing for $70k+ because its almost identical to a 332hp/278tq 370z... but in it's defense, 2,900 lbs is about 400-500 lbs less than the Z.

[saeyedoc]

My wife had a Z a few years ago, I can tell you the Cayman S seems much quicker and way more refined.

[Admiral Ballsy]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Exactly. It's not like we're talking about a 505hp Corvette Z06 that hits 70 mph in first gear.

It's about 58MPH. You can at least get one gearshift in, on the interstate at least!

[Admiral Ballsy]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

The power from a Cayman S not astronomical by any stretch of the imagination. 320-330hp is nothing to brag about these days.

No, but it's still too much to use on the street. I DDed a '99 Camaro SS for five years; about 345 horsepower, and at the top of second gear you were exceeding every posted speed limit in the US.

13-second cars aren't rare anymore, but that doesn't mean they're any more usable on the street.

[Admiral Ballsy]

I was basing it on my recollection of a Car and Driver test - here's one that indicates 59.

I've never actually paid attention to the speed at redline in my car (427 convertible), down to the last digit.

[Admiral Ballsy]

It's in the "Test Results" link in the lower right sidebar. I think if you actually run the numbers (tire diameter, axle and trans ratio, etc.) it does come out a hair under 60, but as you say, the rev limiter gives you another 100RPM, so it's moot.

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

When I'm at a track event I want to really haul ass through the turns AND straights. 125mph+ please.

No doubt there is fun to be had with a higher HP car at the track.

Originally Posted by Admiral Ballsy

No, but it's still too much to use on the street. I DDed a '99 Camaro SS for five years; about 345 horsepower, and at the top of second gear you were exceeding every posted speed limit in the US.

13-second cars aren't rare anymore, but that doesn't mean they're any more usable on the street.

That may be true, but there's no denying the value/fun of having a car that makes more power. Listen, I get the merits of the BRZ. It's the reason I got one. I agree that there's no need for crazy power/grip on the street, but that doesn't mean cars that perform better than the BRZ (pretty much every sports car out there) don't have a reason to exist. This is whole 'BRZ/FRS is all one should ever need/want' mantra only holds so much water.

[Diode Dynamics]

I'm sorry but the E92 M3 is way out of the BRZ's league in nearly every category aside from maybe MPG and cost.

I'd take the M3 over the BRZ 10/10 times...and I love the way they drive, but the M3 is one of the best cars I've ever driven

-Nick C.

[orthojoe]

Nobody is saying the m3 is better than BRZ. I'd personally take a cayman over a m3.

[s5pitfire]

Originally Posted by Jawnathin

I've got a Z06 with 560~whp (as measured to the wheels on the dyno, much higher at the crank) and its pretty much impossible to use all of its power at reasonable length on the street. 1st gear goes to 60, 2nd gear goes to 90, 3rd is 120. If I want to shift at least twice, I'm already at triple digit speeds. And this all happens VERY quickly. This isn't to berate the car. It is fun to drive around town with (the exhaust sound is amazing), but if you really want to push it, it really needs a lot of room and open area to stretch its legs. There may be some areas in the US where that can be done, but not where I live.

I very rarely get to push it and one of the reasons why I wanted a BRZ. Even though its a lesser performance car, I get to use more of it more of the time, and I think that'll be fun.

I just sold my 280whp Mazdaspeed3, which is probably as much or a little more as a Cayman S, and that was perfectly fine for the street. I don't see how a Cayman S would be too much. It is probably just about right.

Yep this is the ongoing dilemma/debate I see going on on this forum. Not hating, just observing...

We are car enthusiasts and the 3 main categories are comfort/luxury (which you might not care about if you want performance), power/torque, and handling. Then there are little things like looks and engine sound.

A lot of you FRSBRZ owners make sense when you say that it can be just as fun having 1/2 the HP/TQ because you get to wring it out, going WOT all through gears 1, 2, and 3. I understand that because with my ~400whp, I go 50% throttle in 1st and 2nd and within 3-4 seconds i'm at the 60-70mph highway speed limit. I say 50% cause WOT would end up with my car wrecked or me just burning out.

I guess that's the balance.. you get to either have LESS power and MORE handling, and its fun to tear up some corners. Or you can have more power and less handling (rarely do you get both. You need a corvette Z06 or cayman S for example), but you basically pay exponentially more.

Or you can take a 2013-2014 mustang 5.0 with 420hp/390tq and 3,400 curb weight, do lowering springs, shocks, sway bars, etc, and have a good blend of both. People say no replacement for displacement, there's also no replacements for lightweight. FRSBRZ is a bit under 2,800 lbs and that's about as light as it gets without being a stripped out tin can civic (people would strip out their 1998 civic Si to 2,500 lbs for example)

TL;DR, some of us prefer lower powered cars that handle well, some want massive power which usually comes with more weight. Or you can try and find a middle ground, but in the end, you have to spend 2-3x as much as you would if you just chose one. An exception is EVO/STi... you get a good blend for less than $35k

[Admiral Ballsy]

Originally Posted by s5pitfire

Or you can take a 2013-2014 mustang 5.0 with 420hp/390tq and 3,400 curb weight

Where do you find those? Every one I've seen tested has been over 3600 pounds, closer to 3700.

[s5pitfire]

Originally Posted by Admiral Ballsy

Where do you find those? Every one I've seen tested has been over 3600 pounds, closer to 3700.

You're right.. I always use edmunds and it says 3,618. So they got fatter, my 05-09 model is around 3,4xx I believe..



In 2013, the FRSBRZ is definitely very light. IIRC some of them Lotus' are around 2,300-2,500lb, basically a stripped car. You want leather seats, A/C, and radio? It aint gonna be sub 2,600, depending on motor/chassis/etc.

Civic Si is 2,943 lb curb weight.... 201hp/170tq.. not bad at all compared to the 159tq, give or take, in the S2000's (which were very similar weight to FRS)