Drift-Office : HKS EL Header Tuned!

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by stevo_12v

165 > 195rwhp

So around 30rwhp gain from a full EL exhaust system!

For full exhaust with a tune.

Originally Posted by Fast_Freddy

I forgot his name but there's another guy here with a Borla UEL, header-back exhaust and a different tune making 200.5whp on pump gas. This is why I dislike comparing dyno results but that's usually all we have to go by.

@wrxgoose?

[Fast_Freddy]

Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses

@wrxgoose?

Yes, thank you.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by Fast_Freddy

I've seen exactly what you're talking about but still don't agree with your incredibly harsh assessment of the Borla header. It's definitely not as pretty as headers costing twice as much

Or any of them, really. The borla isn't significantly cheaper than rev works, fa20club, etc. the only header I've seen that costs double the price of the borla is the hks. It's definitely possible to buy one with flat flanges and a decent collector for the price of the borla, or damn near it.

[Fast_Freddy]

Originally Posted by jamesm

Or any of them, really. The borla isn't significantly cheaper than rev works, fa20club, etc. the only header I've seen that costs double the price of the borla is the hks. It's definitely possible to buy one with flat flanges and a decent collector for the price of the borla, or damn near it.

Borla machines the flanges flat after welding so why would you think that they are not flat? Mine are perfectly flat. The Borla UEL costs $535 with free shipping from Amazon. I paid $435 for a customer return.

I would definitely consider RevWorks if they offered a better warranty but that's unlikely unless they add flex sections to prevent cracking. FA20Club and P&L are turbo manifolds with NA conversion pipes and JDL is a really pretty header that costs way too much at $900+ (more than double what I paid for a Borla).

[wrxgoose]

Originally Posted by Fast_Freddy

I forgot his name but there's another guy here with a Borla UEL, header-back exhaust and a different tune making 200.5whp on pump gas. This is why I dislike comparing dyno results but that's usually all we have to go by.

that's actually why I've been doing all my runs on the same dyno now. Might be showing different from what another dyno shows, but my gains are what matters.

Also, if i'd gone with EL headers, I'd probably have broken 200 whp NA, since from what I've seen, we're getting more power from EL than UEL. I love that rumble, though

[uspspro]

Originally Posted by Fast_Freddy

.... that costs way too much at $900+ (more than double what I paid for a Borla).

Well, some people are happy with a $1000 bicycle, while others spend $6000.

Is the other bike 6x better?... no.
Is it better nonetheless? .... yes.

The headers mentioned (other than HKS), are produced by small businesses. They don't do the kind of sales that Borla does to make money with the slimmest of margins. They also pay attention to the small details like the collector, aesthetics and TIG welding. These practices are more time consuming. Thus the headers cost more for them to build.

Why knock the other products, because they cost more? It's not like the companies mentioned can just change their price to $535, as they would lose money on every sale.

My point is that some consumers are willing to pay more for those attributes. If it weren't for those consumers, there would be no more artisan, handmade types of products, and everything would be mass-produced crap. Technically, if it weren't for the handmade $900 headers, Borla would be free to price theirs much higher.

[StormTrooper]

I have a hard time with buying parts from companies who copy others designs , poorly machine the product and still ask $500 for it.

There are multiple threads on the borla issues. One guy so far with the rev works.

JDL is expensive I agree. Lifetime warranty is nice thou.

As far as nameless....we'll see what happens at the end of the month.

[Fast_Freddy]

Originally Posted by wrxgoose

that's actually why I've been doing all my runs on the same dyno now. Might be showing different from what another dyno shows, but my gains are what matters.

Also, if i'd gone with EL headers, I'd probably have broken 200 whp NA, since from what I've seen, we're getting more power from EL than UEL. I love that rumble, though

Gains on the same dyno are indeed what matters. I'm looking forward to your boosted results too. I'll check your build thread. I agree that EL is probably better than UEL. I highly doubt that it's 11whp more NA but it's certainly something.

Originally Posted by uspspro

Well, some people are happy with a $1000 bicycle, while others spend $6000.

Is the other bike 6x better?... no.
Is it better nonetheless? .... yes.

The headers mentioned (other than HKS), are produced by small businesses. They don't do the kind of sales that Borla does to make money with the slimmest of margins. They also pay attention to the small details like the collector, aesthetics and TIG welding. These practices are more time consuming. Thus the headers cost more for them to build.

Why knock the other products, because they cost more? It's not like the companies mentioned can just change their price to $535, as they would lose money on every sale.

My point is that some consumers are willing to pay more for those attributes. If it weren't for those consumers, there would be no more artisan, handmade types of products, and everything would be mass-produced crap. Technically, if it weren't for the handmade $900 headers, Borla would be free to price theirs much higher.

Good points, I understand and agree with you. I should not have said that JDL and HKS cost too much. I should have said instead that they cost more than I'm willing to pay for the performance gains associated. I'm glad that there are people willing to spend thousands on artisan, handmade products. I'm often one of them but not so much for a header that is hidden under the engine. Mainly I just took offense to a certain member's snobbery concerning the functional, affordable and very well warrantied Borla UEL header.



OP: So sorry for the thread-jack. Awesome tune on that HKS EL exhaust.

[altezza280t]

subbed.... interested in see what a catted or resonanted HKS will do.... getting my HKS front pipe next week. planning on headers next....

Good Info!

[regal]

Any updates on this header?

[Drift-Office]

Originally Posted by regal

Any updates on this header?

Only that we had one on a 6MT Vortech-charged setup, which you undoubtedly saw...

Ref : http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45835

What else were you looking for?


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

[regal]

Originally Posted by Drift-Office

Only that we had one on a 6MT Vortech-charged setup, which you undoubtedly saw...

Ref : http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45835

What else were you looking for?


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

Mainly tuning, other dynos, longer term durability report. Lot of money for a header but it seems to offer the best performance based on dyno's posted in that it cures the torque dip and it has a the best top end. But there isn't a lot of reports about it.

Would you say that a dyno tune is mandatory for this header, or can you recommend any Subaru experienced e-tuners who would work with the OFT or BRZZedit?

[Drift-Office]

Originally Posted by regal

Mainly tuning, other dynos, longer term durability report. Lot of money for a header but it seems to offer the best performance based on dyno's posted in that it cures the torque dip and it has a the best top end. But there isn't a lot of reports about it.

Would you say that a dyno tune is mandatory for this header, or can you recommend any Subaru experienced e-tuners who would work with the OFT or BRZZedit?

Durability : construction seems solid compared to the others I've seen . I can say contrary to forum reviews, both Borlas I've tuned were fine and without issue, while both RevWorks headers on different cars had issues. One had a cracked weld after install and heat cycling while the other had a leak elsewhere. Both HKS ELs had zero issues, but I suppose you could take that for what it's worth. Then again, for that kind of coin, it better be flawless. Ultimately, the verdict is still out since most of the products out there aren't haven't even passed a year of usage yet...

And yes, a dyno tune (not E-Tune) will be needed to realize the actual gains. You can't make cam adjustments and know if it makes power with an E-Tune. For peeps without tuners in their vicinity though, that's going to be the only option I suppose.

Tuning options : of all the options out there, ECUTek while had initial issues, is still the most developed out there. At this point in time, OFT and BRZEdit are still relatively new...

Regards,


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

[FR-Sizzle]

Originally Posted by Fast_Freddy

The numbers don't add up, but they never do with the 86 triplets. I keep reading the following BS:

Header = +10whp
header-back = +15whp
ECUTek Tune = +15whp
Intake = +10whp

But in reality all those mods typically equal +30whp and you're telling me that a 4-2-1 HKS EL is worth +20whp by itself? That's my issue with these numbers. No offense meant.

I believe the set up is catless which is believable. Almost every dyno I have seen with all the bolt on mods that are catless all have gotten similar numbers. I wouldnt doubt the numbers they provided. A good tuner can be the difference of making more power or not. And there is no reason to think that they are BSing us when they are just giving us numbers they achieved from tuning a customers car that has this header. They arent trying to sell us/advertise the HKS header but they are letting us know how well they tuned a customers car with the following mods they listed. What do you honestly expect when you pay more for a reputable brands product. What you pay for is the R&D they put into it and the quality/craftsmanship. Look at Borlas early problems with warped flanges and how many people had to return it to them for the warranty. Sometimes people just prefer to pay more for a quality product that will work well. With HKS that is what you get for paying a little more for a great mod. Same thing with other mods for this car. Look at some of the more expensive intakes like Syms and GruppeM. They cost an arm and a leg but you know what you will be getting from them because you get what you pay for. Excellent craftsmanship, quality, and performance. When tuned it would be even better. Just like how Drift-Office has shown us with this HKS header after tuning it with excellent results.

It just seems like you are either jealous or just arent happy that another owner has gotten MUCH better numbers with an HKS header than your car with a Borla header. You dont see anyone knocking on you for buying a Borla header. If someone decides to pay more for a different vendors products let them. They obviously preferred the HKS because of who they are and what you get. You get what you pay for and it has been well documented that the Borla headers arent really that great compared to all the other headers out on the market. They were one of the first headers to be released.. What do you expect from a vendor/company to be one of the first ones to release a part for this car. Other headers that are taking longer to come out have much more R & D which in return are a better product. Just look at the Nameless header and how long it is taking to develope. I was very interested in the Nameless header and I wouldnt doubt that when it is all said and done that the Nameless headers will probably be one of the best headers for this car because of how long they are working on it to make sure they put out a great product. Borla headers are affordable but they released it early to make more money from people who didnt want to wait or was patient enough to wait for better headers to come out. Look at some of the early intakes and mods on this car that were the first models to come out. They turned out to either provide no gains or even lost power because they rushed it out to make some quick cash since they were the first ones to have that part out. AirRaid and Agency Power were one of the first vendors/companies to come out with some parts for this car and they have been proven to be the worse ones, but they ended up making a lot of money from people since they were one of the first ones to come out with those parts. Its not any different with the Borla headers and what do you expect from them when tons of other companies were still working/developing their headers when Borla came out with theres. The difference is Borla headers actually make some power where as AirRaid/Agency Powers mods didnt get any gain or were nothing close to what they advertised.

They are just simply showing some great gains they achieved from tuning this customers car. Why would you not believe it when they just showed us the dyno's. No one is forcing you to believe what they say. But when a shop/vendor/tuner is giving you proof with dyno's theres no reason to not believe it. These numbers have been achieved multiple times by a lot of other owners of the twins with similar mods or with all the bolt ons you can get w/ a tune. Theirs tons of other owners of this car that got similar numbers with all the bolt ons/tune. This car just happens to be one of the better tuned/performing cars on this forum. No one is forcing you to be in this thread. If you dont like it or dont believe it then ignore it and move on with your day. @Drift-Office has been around these forums for a long time and are one of the more reputable/transparent vendors like Perrin/Nameless. They would have much more to lose than gain to lie about things like this. It takes a long time to build a good reputation and it only takes a second to ruin it.