EcuTek = no resale value?

[infinite012]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

On a side note, Hondata uses the Cobb model, but the number of ECU marriages is limited. After so many "transfers", the unit bricks and can only be locked by Hondata. Not sure if Cobb does this.

If you sell a Cobb AP that's still married to a car, the buyer can send it to Cobb, pay a fee, and have them force unmarry it.

You will need to provide a paper trail of legitimacy of your purchase, though.

[DJCarbine]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

On a side note, Hondata uses the Cobb model, but the number of ECU marriages is limited. After so many "transfers", the unit bricks and can only be locked by Hondata. Not sure if Cobb does this.

Never experienced this with KPro. Unlimited reflashes, no locking of any sort. Maybe thats only with their FlashPro units?

[DJCarbine]

Originally Posted by Toma

BULL crap. I guarantee NO one here read the entire manual .... cover to cover for the last appliance they bought. There is a certain expectation of consumer protection in North America.

When you install your toaster oven and don't allow for enough breathing room for the appliance and it causes a fire... you will wish you had read the manual.

Anything that plugs into an outlet is potentially dangerous and should be treated with respect. Comsumers just willy-nilly plugging things into the wall and wondering why their house burned down is a good reason to READ THE MANUAL.

How many amps does this draw? Why is my fuse blowing every time I run my microwave/tv/space heater at the same time? Why did my extension cord catch on fire?

Oh, its because I didn't realize this appliance draws 17 amps and I ran a 50 foot extension cord with only 16 gauge wire.

Read. The. Manual.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DJCarbine

Never experienced this with KPro. Unlimited reflashes, no locking of any sort. Maybe thats only with their FlashPro units?

Kpro is a bit more... permanent.

Even with the flashpro, the cap is high. Something like 20 marriages. Technically, the unit isn't bricked; you just can't unmarry it anymore.

[swift996]

Originally Posted by Visconti

People need to realize that ecutek is no cobb accessport or Diablo..

EcuTek doesn't want their licenses to be resold and i really don't want my tunes resold.

I think it's funny how quickly people forget how lucky we all are a company like EcuTek is supporting this platform. If EcuTek didn't spend the time and money working on these cars this platform would be completely different !

It's not like EcuTek did simple ecu support and bailed on all of us after. They continue to update their product and stay on top of their game even when they have no real competition. Brzedit isn't competition .. That product is at a entirely different level, similar to the unichip, IMO of course lol .

John

I think most people just wish they had a fair price for their cable and some logical license structure. Either pay a fee to transfer it or bring the cost down. The tune is the tune, it should be licensed to a VIN. $800-900 to have your car tuned and then no recovery of costs is a lot of money for a N/A car. They have price leverage because of the lack of competition. They have done a great job, not arguing that but over time they will feel more pressure to drive cost out.

If I were EcuTek I would view BRZedit as competition but it's going to be hard for BRZedit to compete against the franchise, engineering, and supplier/relationship model of EcuTek. For the consumer it's good to have options, it drives better value.

[Nightbringer]

Agreed completely with this. Over time they will need to change things up to stay competitive, but this is always how things go after an initial release of a vehicle. First-to-market is always pricey. If I lived in Illinois (near P&L) I'd have probably gone with BRZedit for all the above reasons/value. For now anyways, I'm just happy I HAVE an externally-managed option like Visconti/EcuTEK. I'm sure many exciting things will come up down the road as competition increases between the offerings.

[infinite012]

I just really wish things went back to when OpenSource was just a $20 Tactrix cable and free software download away.

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by Toma

BULL crap. I guarantee NO one here read the entire manual .... cover to cover for the last appliance they bought. There is a certain expectation of consumer protection in North America.

So when something does not adhere to the status quo, the onus is on them and not the consumer.

Alright. Points been made over and over.

I agree that most people don't read their terms that they agree to when they purchase products, especially in the area of software licenses. That doesn't make the sale of licenses legitimate however. Just like the copy of Windows that you can use on that used PC which is licensed on that PC, the ECUTek dongle/license/tune can be used on that used car which it is licensed to.

You can't sell your copy of windows for use on some other PC, just as you can't sell the ECUTek license/tune to be used on a different car.

You can sell your ECUTek cable and dongle - those are consumer goods comparable to the plasma TV. You can't sell your license to use the software and tune. Those are like the cable TV subscriptions that your plasma TV displays. Again, not a perfect analogy, but a Plasma TV is not a perfect analog to a digital license either.

At any rate, we're all splitting hairs here now. We all know what you're trying to say, and for better or worse, the licensing model in place is what is in place. Would I prefer an open model where I can buy a cable or a handheld device and get tunes from whoever I want or even develop them myself for personal use? Sure - absolutely. Are any of these options available today that offer the same level of functionality and support as ECUTek? No, not yet.

[Rich@ViscontiTuning]

This seems to be a really hot debate that comes up in various forms every month or so. I've read all of your responses and I think part of the problem is that so many get caught up in comparing "this product to that product" when the two really aren't as comparable as it might seem on the surface. EcuTek stands above the rest because it incorporates a ton of new features that no one else can offer. And it continues to innovate and improve upon them with regular updates. The end user ProECU software allows you to graph datalogs with a ton of new parameters in addition to the factory ones, and includes exclusive dealer tools like the ABS tool and steering wheel angle tool (for GTR), Subaru VIN Coder, Subaru Key Sync, and several others I'm sure I'm leaving out. And let's not forget about the RaceROM features and all of the groundbreaking capabilities that technology has made possible (advanced traction control and FlexFuel come to mind). EcuTek has a really nice software suite, and it's well worth the $250 license fee. And the license fee is payment for the privilege to use the software, not to own it. And that’s the important distinction that I think a lot of you don’t acknowledge or recognize. You’re supporting the software manufacturer to continue pouring tremendous resources into providing the industry with a better product.

But for me, this comes down to a single argument or topic - Intellectual Property. And it's another important difference because these aren’t tangible items you’re paying for.. like a TV. Everyone has the right to be fairly compensated for their work. That's the real 'American Way.' And I think a lot of you guys get caught up in the assumption that the tune or the license should be treated like any other performance part you install on your car. And that's just not the case. It isn’t as cut and dry as it is with an exhaust or an intake, where once you’ve engineered the part, its going to continue to work the same with all applications it’s made for without any further support from the manufacturer.

I think @Visconti made one of the best analogies I can think of the other day when he made the comparison to music you would buy off iTunes. And obviously the whole digital music and DRM debate still rages on today, but the bottom line is, the artists produce their music and you pay to listen to it. It isn’t “your song” because you’ve paid to listen to it.. it still belongs to the artist. It’s not a perfect comparison though because I think in this incredibly niche market we’re in, the tuner has even more right to protect his work and decide who can sell and distribute it than even an artist does with their music. And the reason I say that is because Visconti Tuning guarantees free updates for the life of the tune. And that’s a huge commitment because it’s not as simple as applying a “blanket update” to every customer’s tune. Each tune has to be individually updated. And the same is true for the initial tune. It has to be individually adapted to each specific car, because as I’m sure many of you know, there are widely varying ECU models even on the same year and model car, all of which have to be supported and made to work with the base calibration.

It really comes down to what you’re paying for when you buy these products. You’re paying for their use and their benefits; not their “physical ownership.” I think the concert analogy used above also has some merit because if you decide that you want to leave the concert early, you’re not entitled to a refund. It was your decision to leave. The artist still put on the show and provided what you paid for. The same is true when you decide to sell your tune. We’ve guaranteed the tune for the life of your car. If you leave early and decide to go in a different direction, that doesn’t change the fact that we delivered on what you paid for and you enjoyed the full benefit of the product. And just like you shouldn’t be able to leave midway through the concert and sell your ticket to someone waiting outside, each new customer wanting their car tuned should have to pay the same “admission fee.”

The only exception to this in my opinion is if you sell your car. Then it should be transferrable and you should be allowed to charge a premium for the fact that the car has advanced capabilities over the average stock car. In that case, just like with a warranty (another intangible item), it’s the property of the car and it should go along with it. This is definitely an interesting debate and I think it has much wider implications than just what we’re talking about here. But as we progress ever further into the digital revolution, it becomes more and more important for people to be able to protect their ideas and their digital work. And I think most reasonable people looking at the situation without a vested interest (i.e. a tune they want to sell) would agree with these arguments.

[StormTrooper]

EcuTek is the reason I still don't have a tune on my car...flat foot shifting and launch control I could care less about.

I want something reasonably priced that I can order a base tune with a few free maps or cheap lightly tweaked maps. Then I can go to a shop later and pay just the tuner not for a licence. A licence is just like dealer added cost for a new car. You're over paying because other options aren't available.

More than 4-500 is simply stupid expensive for a NA tune. Sure if i wanted a custom FI tune on a car not built for it i'm willing to shell out $900.



The only thing that should be considered a one time use is the tune it's self.


My two cents.

[GTM_Challenge]

Though I have an EcuTek Tune on my car and knew what I was getting into from the beginning, I was not worried about the resale value. Why do we mod cars? To enjoy them. That car could be taken away from you in any capacity at any given time (theft, wreck, etc.)

If you want everything (tune yourself, able to sell later for some residual, etc). look into the Hydra standalone. Sure, it's pricey, but hell, you can resell it. People sitting on an online forum debating which business model is better isn't going to change a thing, especially at this point. Maybe in the years to come it will, but not at the moment, so why argue? It is what it is, you cannot personally do much about it except weigh your options and go with the best choice for you, be it EcuTek, BRZEDIT, Hydra, Unichip, etc.

At the end of the day, if you want a tune, you're going to have to pay somebody something. Its up to you to determine if its worth the cost or not.

[ftc~brz]

Originally Posted by Toma

BULL crap. I guarantee NO one here read the entire manual .... cover to cover for the last appliance they bought. There is a certain expectation of consumer protection in North America.

So when something does not adhere to the status quo, the onus is on them and not the consumer.

Alright. Points been made over and over.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but I do read every manual, cover to cover, for every appliance I have to buy and I enjoy doing so. I also do research and check reviews for any major item I purchase. If I spend 1200 dollars on a washing machine I damn well want to know how it works, how I need to take care of it, and what I need to yell at my husband for doing wrong to it. I work too hard to make the money I spend not to know every thing I can about how I am spending it. (I've read the complete manual for every car I've owned too.)

I have an ecutek base tune. And I just paid for another one for my supercharger. I'm not bitching about the money I spent on the 1st tune because I now need a 2nd or I would have a trunk full of parts to slap on and do it all at once and just buy the FI tune. This was the way I chose to do it so I'm technically at a loss as well. Before I made any mods I read threw every damn page of posts on threads about it that Visconti put up. And I believe the details of the rights that applied were there because I may not be able to regurgitate verbatim what it says but I know that I lose my money if I decide to undo what I paid for.

It does suck that your friend loses money in his particular situation. But that's the price he pays going the way he is going. There is always some sort of loss it's called depreciation for a reason.

[SkAsphalt]

Originally Posted by xjohnx

Apparently not. Once it's unmarried from one car, it can be married to another car and upload the tune to the new car immediately. It's only good for one car at a time, but it is absolutely transferable.

Jesus christ guys, I meant that one car AT A TIME.

[cuddefred]

Interesting debate guys and I can see merit in all of the arguments to some extent.

The bottom line for me is this. I knew what I was getting when I bought the Ecutek package and all of the information is out there and not hard to find. It is THE best mod I have on my car and if Toyota had delivered it from the factory driving as smoothly it does now, with the increase in power and driveability it now has, I would have happily paid more for it because it is totally transformed from stock.

I paid a fair amount to John Visconti to tune my car and he has transformed it with the help of Ecutek's product. He can occasionally be a little abrasive but he sure knows how to tune this car, improves and updates his products regularly and I thank him for it, as well as the fact that he comes on here trying to explain things with transparency. Am I happy with it? Very! Would I do it again? - Yes I would!

It isn't for everyone but if you don't like the business model, look elsewhere. The vast majority of Ecutek customers seem more than happy with what they have for their money. :happy0180: