Question: Does Light Wheels = Weak Wheels

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by yoshiharadesign

wheel size also would be dependent on how big diameter of brakes and caliper set up that would be put on the vehicle. That would determine if a 17 diameter wheel will still fit or not.

How many people here are building cars that REQUIRE 18" wheels to clear their brakes? Not many...

Heck, 16" wheels will clear our BBK with the proper face design.

[yoshiharadesign]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

How many people here are building cars that REQUIRE 18" wheels to clear their brakes? Not many...

Heck, 16" wheels will clear our BBK with the proper face design.

It's good to keep options open especially since there are quite a few brake manufacturers.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by yoshiharadesign

It's good to keep options open especially since there are quite a few brake manufacturers.

To be honest, if one is running such a large brake setup to need 18" wheels, I hope they are making an absurd amount of power.

For a ~2700lb car you do NOT need ~350mm rotors to slow down the car. And if you do need that much stopping power, you're better off running the right pads with proper NACA ducting to the rotors for cooling.

And anyone that wants to prove me wrong: show me a FRS/BRZ with a 13" big brake kit that "needs more braking power".

-alex

[yoshiharadesign]

Originally Posted by mav1178

To be honest, if one is running such a large brake setup to need 18" wheels, I hope they are making an absurd amount of power.

For a ~2700lb car you do NOT need ~350mm rotors to slow down the car. And if you do need that much stopping power, you're better off running the right pads with proper NACA ducting to the rotors for cooling.

And anyone that wants to prove me wrong: show me a FRS/BRZ with a 13" big brake kit that "needs more braking power".

-alex

True but then again, people don't need turbo or sc for a 2700lb car either... . Ultimately, if you see the types of crazy mods as we have for cars throughout the years, we've seen our fair share of lightweight cars with ridiculous power and with huge brakes.... It's just progression this platform will get loads of power upgrades from the tuning world... FWIW, There are already fr-s 355mm brake kits out there offered by brake manufacturers for the Frs. Our consideration as a manufacturer is to factor in those possibilities in both a short term and long term perspective. Brembo, TRD, amd many others are already offering them for the chassis...http://www.hachiroku.com.au/2012/07/...ecial-edition/. Overkill? Perhaps... But then again, we all thought Hondas were little econoboxes and look where people have taken them in terms of power....

[Gary in NJ]

FWIW, I'm not looking to add "crazy" horsepower to my car. I'm not a dyno queen or a racer. I simply want to fatten up the low-end and mid-range. The Innovative SC is perfect for my desires...I'm just waiting for the early adopters to complete the testing for the manufacturer.

So big brakes are not in my future.

[Nezz]

Originally Posted by mav1178

To be honest, if one is running such a large brake setup to need 18" wheels, I hope they are making an absurd amount of power.

For a ~2700lb car you do NOT need ~350mm rotors to slow down the car. And if you do need that much stopping power, you're better off running the right pads with proper NACA ducting to the rotors for cooling.

And anyone that wants to prove me wrong: show me a FRS/BRZ with a 13" big brake kit that "needs more braking power".

-alex

Damn straight. I want a BBK but nothing that won't fit under 17"...

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by yoshiharadesign

True but then again, people don't need turbo or sc for a 2700lb car either... .

That was not my point...

Our cars don't need anything larger than a 13" big brake kit. If you cannot accomplish what your car needs for braking with a 13" kit, you are doing something absurdly wrong.

Brake systems (once properly set up piston/proportioning), really comes down to a simple physics question of how much braking power is needed for a 2700lb car. We are not driving 3500-4000lb supercars here... that's my point.

If a 13" BBK can be same weight as (or even slightly less than) stock caliper/rotors, that's fine, but 14" kits often weigh more than stock, with ZERO benefits over the 13" kit other than you have to run bigger wheels. Bigger wheels have two problems: 1) more mass, and 2) more mass towards the outside of the wheel (which, all else equal, makes for worse acceleration)

These are all things to keep in mind. Even if you turbocharge your car to 500HP, you do NOT need a 14" big brake kit to slow the car down unless you're running something like Bonneville Salt Flats every day.

-alex

Edit: My roommate keeps insisting I get 18" track wheels for the BRZ, for no reason other than "oh there's so much more fitment available"... I look at it from a simple perspective: I am not doing time attack, I don't need extra-stiff sidewall for response, I am not making more than stock HP, 17" with track tires will be more than enough for what my car makes power-wise.

His only response is, 18"s have so much more fitment choices!

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by Gary in NJ

So big brakes are not in my future.

Even if the were not, you'd be wise to know exactly what it takes to slow this car down.

For a frame of reference, look at all the properly set up track-going S13/14 240SX... the car weighs the same as ours (roughly), and the transplated SR20DET powerplant makes upwards of 400RWHP on stock internals. Big brake kits are needed at some point, but a lot of people can get away with the Z32 front/rear 4/2 piston brakes and proper cooling/pads/rotors, and not have to resort to a large brake setup to slow their cars down.

The more you know...

-alex

[Gary in NJ]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Even if the were not, you'd be wise to know exactly what it takes to slow this car down.

Like I said, I don't plan to track this car. Additionally, a SC doesn't mean that you drive faster, only that you have more available power for passing and acceleration.

If I'm driving down the road at 50 mph and a deer jumps in front of me, what difference does a SC make? If I'm cruising down the highway at 70 mph and I need to slow down for an exit, what difference does the SC make? What value have larger brakes brought to my 2,700 pound car?

I don't care how much power you make, there is a practical and reasonable (and legal too) limit as to how fast you can drive on public roads. 50 more hp wont change my driving habits one bit.

[yoshiharadesign]

Originally Posted by mav1178

Even if you turbocharge your car to 500HP, you do NOT need a 14" big brake kit to slow the car down unless you're running something like Bonneville Salt Flats every day.

You can have a 12" or 10" brake to slow down a 500 hp car. The key is how quickly that is achieved... how taxing it is on the system... and how repeated stops will effect the life of that system.... If that was the case, car manufacturers would be keeping their brake setup regardless of engine variances in terms of output. As manufacturers, production of cars or parts, there is a need to anticipate and keep an envelope to which the platform will develop into. If further down the pipeline, this platform gets a big power boost, I wouldnt be surprised if bigger brakes would be part of the addition. Its simply because bigger engine output results in faster acceleration and speed gain, and therefore based on the stop and go nature of the street, you would be braking harder in a shorter amount of time to compensate.... Again, is there a need? possibly not. Overkill? possibly... But then again, there is a reason why bigger brakes are prevalent in higher hp variants and a necessity on the track. But again, it all depends on what you plan to do both short term and long term...

[Vracer111]

Gary in NJ, have you also looked at the Kosei K4R's (17x8 in +36mm offset)? Generally you want wheels with many small spokes evenly spaced out versus less spokes with more spacing between when looking for lightweight wheels as they spread the load out for better barrel and lip support. If you look at most GT race car wheels they have lots of small spokes evenly spaced out. K4R's weight about the same but less expensive than the Enkei RPF1, and have a ridiculous amount of clearance for brake upgrades in comparison.

Below is a test fit I did of the Essex Sprint brake kit template on the K4R's...look at the ridiculous amount of room available... (also notice how the spokes intersection with the lip and hub is beautifully radius'd and blended - no sharp angles to act as stress risers):



The dark grey/anthracite color of them would look nice on a WRB BRZ too...

[mav1178]

I think the point is missed..

I'm saying: you do not need to go up to 18" wheels for a big brake kit for this car. That's all I am saying.

-alex

[Gary in NJ]

Originally Posted by Vracer111

Gary in NJ, have you also looked at the Kosei K4R's (17x8 in +36mm offset)?

They weren't even on my radar...until you pointed them out. 15.8 pounds! The looks don't wow me (but they are nice looking in GMG), but the specs and price do.

Thanks for the heads-up. That's a 22.4 pound savings of unsprung weight - wow. Coupled with Continental ExtremeContact DW in 225/45 which carry a zero weight penalty with the stock 215/45's, and that is a significant upgrade.