How cheap would the factory ~250hp 86/FRS/BRZ need to be for you to trade in?

[Pete]

I would trade in for a 3.0l boxer 6. They could sell that for quite a bit I think.

[Batman]

I've always said the only other car I would trade this in for would be an AWD version of the same thing. Although, I do love the idea of the flat 6 engine I've always liked buying stock cars, because my 2nd favorite thing to do with my car besides drive it, is "work" on it. I will put my own FI in once I can choose a team lol. Recently, now that snow is gone, I love the RWD and don't want the AWD (at least until next winter) but I am hoping to add an additional car to my fleet, to be a winter worthy daily driver. The only car in my mind that MAY tempt me to trade, is this supposed hybrid AWD supra that BMW is helping make/design. BUT, as that's even more of a mystery/unicorn than the innovate supercharger (was, anyway), I will stick with my batmobile, at this point, until the keys are pried from my cold dead fingers

[FAER]

Originally Posted by Adeets

Take your pick of an FI choice, find its price, double it + 25% now add that to the most expensive version of the car brand of your choice (BRZ ltd, gt86 blah blah, FRS 10 edition) and that will be the cost of a factory 250whp version of your 86.

TRD supercharger (25k) doubled so 50k x 25% so 62.5k + (brz ltd) 28k...

=

90.5k....


nice math

[FAER]

in relation to the notion of FI... do not forget the fa20DIT already produced and engineered in the forester .... detuned it would work fine in the BRS/FRS only real feasable upgrade required beyond whats offered in that package is an upgraded clutch and cooling...

No extensive R&D required like starting from scratch, just put factory parts on a factory car...

the real problem i see is the "encroaching on the flag ship STI."

This is what i see as being the NO-GO button

[Acree]

Originally Posted by circuithero

I think you have a pretty naive notion (no offense intended) of what it takes to make something like this happen. No way in hell are you going to get a 270hp, 2800lb car for 30~32k, especially from the twins.

Why is that? Well lets look at it from an engineers perspective. First and foremost, a feasibility study has to happen to make sure a project like this would not only be economically feasible but have a chance of being profitable. This is most likely where this idea would be shut down by any smart project manager. Why is that?

Well, first of all you are looking at an already small select portion of a smaller section of a market, the sports car market. You know what is profitable? Corollas, Civics, Cayennes. In fact, for all the 911 die hard fans, what saved Porsche a decade ago was not the Boxster, not the 996 911, it was the Cayenne. Because for every mid-life crisis guy looking to test the hair on his chest there are 1000+ A to B drivers. This trend is only continuing as less younger people are driving and of those that are, are looking for something simple, cheap and with navigation and iOS integration. Sports car are very rarely profitable. Sports cars are more traditionally used as marketing exercises with halo cars (ala GTR) and to aid the perception of a company: which is exactly the purpose of the twins. Nobody wants to say I own a car from the most beige, gray, bread and butter company. This is the main reasons manufacturers participate in racing, win on Sunday and sell on Monday.

Either way, there is no doubt that Toyota invested mega-cubic dollars to R&D and develop this car. It's very good, it's been hyped up for over 5 years - coincidentally Toyota had no proper sports cars and was often quoted as being the most bland and boring auto manufacturer (while maintaining #1 profitable spot for many years in NA). My personal bias tells me that Honda has quite decidedly snatched the boring auto leader from Toyota. Regardless, this car was a huge gamble and I'm sure the manufacturer will take a couple years, to hopefully, maybe break even after all the R&D and development; provided the car continues to be relatively popular. Now if you notice, a lot of journalists who have tested the TRD concept (no added power) have come away with the - "Yea its faster...but...it kinda lost that fun, approachable nature". And therein lies the crux! Mind you we are already talking about the miniscule sports car market and how many people in that market truly want to race or something harsh? Maybe 5/100? 5/1000? The same reason the ITR was non successful in the NA market, for every one of the dedicated enthusiasts who wants a race car for the street, 1000's do not and there are no enough of us to fund and offset the costs associated with such a project.

Well why would it be so expensive in your opinion? Full Blown can do it for 4.5k right? As a manufacturer, you have no idea how much red tape is surrounding each car! There is emissions, warranty, reputation, recalls, lawsuits, crash safety standards...etc, etc, etc. The list is endless. Why was the 350z so much heavier than the Rx8, despite being smaller in dimensions? Why is the Genesis so heavy? Torque. Torque brakes everything. You add torque to a car, a car mind you that they want to do no warranty work on for 5 years (because then any chance you have of making profit on the car is gone) and you need to beef up EVERYTHING. Suddenly, you need more clutch, bigger driveshafts, sturdier differential, bigger brakes...etc. Suddenly your turbo twin that was supposed to be a great car, is a 3200lb pig that has not playful spirit of its predecessor and the reason the original twin was selling so well. Boost adds more points of failure, extra heat and you would not believe the amount of testing and iterations that a manufacturer has to go through. You have to test in cold climates up north, in desert climates, in humid climates, for 100k+ and the entire time you are paying engineers, drivers...etc. Then you have to apply for emissions, tune for economy..etc. All those development costs are then passed unto the consumer. Suddenly the guy's who were shouting and crying for more power are backing away, "Well I would've paid 32k for a 270hp, 2800lb car, but 40k for that pig? Hell no, I would rather tune the base FRS...".

Not to mention the hierarchy within a manufacturer. The BRZ is a light, relatively quick car. Add a bit of power and tire and suddenly its competing and breathing down the neck of the STi and that is something no manufacturer wants.

This is an ENTRY level sports car and it will stay that way, the same reason the miata has been relatively successful. Because for every guy who wants to boost the miata, there are a 1000 who are content driving the car the way it is. You think the mazdaspeed miata was a profitable project? Hell no. That car only added what, 40hp? Via unreliable IHI turbos?

I am one of the guys who tracks and autox's. If I was working for Toyota I would never greenflag a project like this because I have seen this cry wolf scenario before.

Finally someone with some sense on these forums. (I'm an engineer :P)

[Fabron757]

I tradded in my 2010 twin turbo camaro for my FRS. Knowing the FRS was very slow stock. But it was fun to drive and handled very well. I added some boost and now its faster then my camaro I had. But gets better mpg and I can fit in any parking space. Plus when I beat expensive cars i can say you got beat down by a scion LOL. An 11-12sec car for 33k is not bad in my book. Plus the FRS is very cheap in the maintenance side. When is the last time a light weight rear wheel drive car was built? Alot of people do motor swaps with light weight cars. But the engine in this car is crazy once boost is added. In the end its your decision. How ever I will tell you this if you get rid of this car you are going to mess it.

[cplabaunza]

Originally Posted by Fabron757

I tradded in my 2010 twin turbo camaro for my FRS. Knowing the FRS was very slow stock. But it was fun to drive and handled very well. I added some boost and now its faster then my camaro I had. But gets better mpg and I can fit in any parking space. Plus when I beat expensive cars i can say you got beat down by a scion LOL. An 11-12sec car for 33k is not bad in my book. Plus the FRS is very cheap in the maintenance side. When is the last time a light weight rear wheel drive car was built? Alot of people do motor swaps with light weight cars. But the engine in this car is crazy once boost is added. In the end its your decision. How ever I will tell you this if you get rid of this car you are going to mess it.

I don't consider this car light weight...The Lotus Elise and Exige are light wieght...this car is a pig in comparison

[JackSmiley]

I wouldnt be surprised if toyota decided to release a sup'd up version of the FRS/GT86 under the lexus label.

[Fabron757]

Originally Posted by cplabaunza

I don't consider this car light weight...The Lotus Elise and Exige are light wieght...this car is a pig in comparison

I almost bought the lotus Elise. But when I drove it didn't like the space inside and the seats sat to close together. Plus was hard getting in and out. And my wife said it looked like a bug and the Frs looked way better.

[GTB/ZR-1]

Devil's advocate here:

Remember that economy of scale & shared corporate parts would ultimately keep the price reasonable, IMHO...

I would have paid an additional $10k ($35k), if the car had the upcoming 300bhp 2.0T & all the powertrain related bits that entails, STI brakes, bigger rims/tires, etc.

Now THAT would be a great little performer & excellent bargain...

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by cplabaunza

I don't consider this car light weight...The Lotus Elise and Exige are light wieght...this car is a pig in comparison

And most modern cars are going to add several hundred pounds on top of the BRZ. Those are two very spartan specialty cars, far outside the norm.

[thill]

Subaru has already stated that they have heard the requests for more power and will do something about it. That said, I don't see it costing under $32K.

[WolfpackS2k]

Some of you guys' attitudes about "how it is in the industry" is just so far off it's comical. By your stated criteria 1/2 the "affordable" sports cars out there right now would never be in existence.

There's no reason to assume that Subaru (or Toyota) wouldn't release a turbocharged model with 300hp (crank) for around $31-32k. The FRS is 25k so you're talking about an additional 5-6k for a more powerful engine (something Subaru is already putting in the Forester) stronger drivetrain components (not difficult to do), revised suspension settings (again easy) and larger brakes (no big deal - do you think a 12.5" rotor costs much more at wholesale than an 11.5" rotor...no it's like pennies on the dollar).

Blah blah blah there's no market for it. Well I'm sure Toyota and Subaru have been taking notice of all the money their customers are pouring into the wallets of aftermarket companies. No doubt they would rather have that money for themselves.

[thill]

Base WRX = $25,795 MSRP
Base WRX STi = $37,645 MSRP

That is a $12K difference. And from what I experience here, Subaru has no problem selling the STi at all. People are on wait lists. Even if the BRZ was marked up $8-10K for an STi model I suspect demand would outpace supply for years.

No way do I see Subaru selling a true STi BRZ for under $33K MSRP. I mean they could if it just had some minor performance upgrades, but if you are talking turbo/supercharger with enhanced suspension, tires, ECU, tranny, etc... Like I said, even if it only cost them $3K in parts and labor, they are going to mark it up a ton because of the demand.