Is the tC still relevant?

[zoomzoomers]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

^It IS safer/easier to drive. I've seen experimental data and statistics showing FWD is objectively safer than RWD in rain/snow.

I've read something like this in the past, but it was stressed for "rain and snow". I also recall that FWD might be better at overall breaking too, but can't be a 100% sure on how much so. Or even it was significant enough to call it better.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Have to disagree. How can you be involved in ALMS but not know about grassroots? Nearly all the Scion owners in the scene know who Rado is. He was the first person to even bring Scion to Motorsports.

How do you explain everyone knowing about drifting, because Scion doesn't advertise the drifting no where near as much as Rado's winning's. I'm pretty sure they toss him more money than any other team. It's because Drifting is exciting right? And the people watching it are young. The people who are watching it are likely to take their Scions where? AutoX, Time Attacking, Road Racing....GrassRoots. Not to ALMS...

Maybe I'm just one of the ones who keeps his nose buried in what grassroots is doing more. I can't name a single ALMS driver. Being able to compete in ALMS is a dream I'm pretty sure none of us will ever see, and none of Scion's target demographic will ever do. But I've been on the track with Rado before at the same event....so, I keep my ear to things I can actually be apart of. And that IS where Scion is. Apart of things we all can do as a community. I don't care about them competing in a scale like ALMS and I don't think they actually NEED it to be mainstream. Mainstream to me IS the grassroots events. Being right there at ground Zero with the enthusiast. We don't live at the F1, D1 G1 GP, LeMans level. Why bother creating a BRZ GT300 level vehicle, if none of us can even go see it, touch it, run on the track with it? We like to watch it...sure, but I feel more connected to Scion by being at the grassroots level and not just simply watching them build a car that's not even using any components from the factory version (i.e. BRZ GT300).

--Getting off topic here, there is a thread already for this discussion over here:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2924

Time trial isn't all that followed by people who watch pro races. Even guys racing in SCCA Club and Pro racing don't follow time trial unless they run it also. You think it's weird because you do NASA TT. Some people just hear NASA and immediately stop listening because of how f'd up NASA is and some of the shit they've pulled in the past.

To believe that people who go to ALMS races to party, watch racing, and get drunk would actually give a crap about NASA TT is pretty funny IMO. Most people I see at ALMS only watch racing that's on TV unless it's at Sebring so they can go to get shitfaced during the race, burn shit to the ground, etc... many of them don't know anything about grassroots racing.

I used to know a bunch of guys that were into drifting.... none of them were even into autocrossing, let alone DEs, W2W, TT, etc. Drifting is an exhibition sport, not a motor sport (IMO). Heck more of the drifters I've met were more into car shows than auto racing.

I can't name many pro drivers either (and I don't tend to watch pro racing on TV) but I can certainly understand that your average car enthusiasts certainly can't be expected to know grassroots drivers and events if I don't even bother to know about the "famous" ones. To know people who are involved with grassroots motorsports you almost always have to be involved in that specific sport. You know Rado, but do you know people who run Spec Miata? Or Honda Challenge? Or Spec E30? Or ChumpCar? Or SCCA IT7 drivers? etc? Your opinion is tainted I believe because of your involvement with TT. Realistically most people don't know nor care about TT. I bet if you took a poll here the numbers would show that.

[zoomzoomers]

Originally Posted by DMDZK

I think there are a couple misconceptions in this thread.


First, the BRZ/FT86/FR-S is a great car. I, like many others here, am very excited for it. That being said, it has little mass market appeal. It is low on power for an American sports car, it is small and largely unpractical, and finally it is RWD.


The tC despite, scion’s advertising, is not a tuner car. It is heavy for its power output, the glass ceiling makes it very top heavy, and the engine isn’t designed as a high performance motor. That being said, the new Camry motor is great and has characteristics that make it a great daily driver engine. That isn’t to say it can’t be driven like a sporty coupe, I certainly do, it is just sub optimal compared to other offerings.


What the tC is however, is a great mass market car. It has great amenities at its price point. (Even more so in 2005 when the MSRP was 16k) the styling (always subjective) is great. For most people it is more than enough power and has capable handling characteristics.


In regards to scion, which many consider to be unsuccessful, is anything but. Everyone remember Oldsmobile? They use to be a relevant car manufacturer until they woke up one morning and there average customer was 65… 7 years ago Toyota was in a similar position, they had affordable reliable cars, but one of the oldest average buyer ages (40). Their solution to this was to attract younger buyers to Toyota dealerships via unconventional marketing and youth oriented vehicles. They also needed to do this without negatively affecting Toyota’s brand image.


Enter Scion, more of a marketing arm than a new brand, they exist in the corner of Toyota dealerships have advertising and vehicles that appeal to younger buyers, sold cars in a non conventional manner (Scion Pure Pricing) and used mono-spec offerings to keep cost down while using dealer installed accessories as a primary source of dealer income.


Make no mistake, Scion is not Lexus, they are not intended to be a self sufficient brand distinct and separate from Toyota. It is a gateway product meant to maintain Toyotas relevance among younger buyers. As well as an advertising department that can have edgy and unconventional methods without alienating Toyotas current customer base.


Toyota is not stupid. The tC will not be cannibalized by the FR-S, for most people the FR-S requires too many compromise to be seriously considered as an alternative to the typical FWD sub 20k coupe category which it is in no way a part of, despite many “tuner/enthusiasts” comparisons.


Also First post...

Well said.

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

So you're saying that Toyota wanted to improve their brand image and bring in younger customers by...creating another brand that a lot of people don't even realize is Toyota?! Seems like pretty dumb logic to me. I'd also like to bring up the fact that when Scion was created they pledged to never sell one model longer than one generation, i.e. single run models. That lasted...almost no time at all.

Toyota needs to kill off Scion and rebadge those cars back to Toyotas as they rightfully should be. Toyota has a lot of sporting heritage that goes back over 40 years, something that Scion will never have.

I think their marketing people are a bunch of idiots

I disagree. I think Toyota did right by creating Scion. Like it or not, it has given them an avenue to capture the younger segment of the market while not diluting the Toyota brand image.

Originally Posted by Quentin

I don't think that they're specifically trying to say Scion isn't Toyota. They want to have the brand connection to keep you in the family when you "grow up". Most people transition from driving their modded, loud cars to driving a vehicle that works for their family. When it is time to buy that family car, they already, hopefully, have a positive experience with Scion and thus Toyota, so their first choice is to buy a Toyota family car. I've been on nasioc since 2001. I can't tell you how many people went from owning a 98~01 2.5RS or WRX to eventually having a Forester or Outback when they had kids. A good experience with the RS/WRX made people comfortable to jump right into Subaru's family vehicles. When you have a good experience with a company, you tend to go back to them. That is what Toyota is trying to cultivate with Scion. They get to target the youth market without sending mixed messages about their bread and butter, something for everyone brand, Toyota.

Agreed.

[Dragonitti]

^Was not talking about NASA. Was talking about Global Time Attack and Redline Time Attack. You don't know who Serra Serra is? How about the Cyber Evo? And to say Drifting is not a Motorsport is like saying to Sean White that half-pipe is not snowboarding and he needs to do downhill slalom snowboarding to be considered a Snowboarder.

All the people you described about watching ALMS on TV are older than Scions demographic or do not represent a grassroots crowd....further proving my thoughts about it being pointless to venture into that arena.

Scion is about being affordable, and competing in Motorsports that WE can compete in with them makes more sense to me.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

^Was not talking about NASA. Was talking about Global Time Attack and Redline Time Attack. You don't know who Serra Serra is? How about the Cyber Evo? And to say Drifting is not a Motorsport is like saying to Sean White that half-pipe is not snowboarding and he needs to do downhill slalom snowboarding to be considered a Snowboarder.

All the people you described about watching ALMS on TV are older than Scions demographic or do not represent a grassroots crowd....further proving my thoughts about it being pointless to venture into that arena.

Scion is about being affordable, and competing in Motorsports that WE can compete in with them makes more sense to me.

Never heard of Global Time Attack. Have heard of Redline of course. Chris Rado runs in NASA TT for sure and it's where I've heard of him. I have no idea who Serra Serra is. I have seen the Cyber Evo before (didn't know it was the "cyber evo" until a google search though).

I am involved in grassroots racing and have been for years (SCCA, some NASA, Chump, LeMons) but I don't pay too much attention to TT myself. :shrug:

And yeah.. sorry.. drifting isn't a motorsport to me unless you add the word "exhibition" in front of it. Nothing against it, but I don't consider it a motorsport and I wouldn't miss it if it disappeared.. just not my thing.

Anyways, it's still pretty obvious why people don't know about Rado's car. It's not a sport that gets a lot of attention in normal marketing channels. Let's say you were not involved in TT and/or Scions at all, but did race, say, 240SXes in SCCA ITA, do you feel that you'd really know who Chris Rado was? Probably not simply because you aren't involved in the sport enough to bother to know. Maybe you would just want to know everything about every grassroots type event, but most don't have the time, or just don't care, to. You can be a grassroots racer and only know the sport you are in, there's nothing wrong with that.. just like you don't have to know every grassroots effort to be a grassroots racer.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Never heard of Global Time Attack. Have heard of Redline of course. Chris Rado runs in NASA TT for sure and it's where I've heard of him. I have no idea who Serra Serra is. I have seen the Cyber Evo before (didn't know it was the "cyber evo" until a google search though).

I am involved in grassroots racing and have been for years (SCCA, some NASA, Chump, LeMons) but I don't pay too much attention to TT myself. :shrug:

And yeah.. sorry.. drifting isn't a motorsport to me unless you add the word "exhibition" in front of it. Nothing against it, but I don't consider it a motorsport and I wouldn't miss it if it disappeared.. just not my thing.

Anyways, it's still pretty obvious why people don't know about Rado's car. It's not a sport that gets a lot of attention in normal marketing channels. Let's say you were not involved in TT and/or Scions at all, but did race, say, 240SXes in SCCA ITA, do you feel that you'd really know who Chris Rado was? Probably not simply because you aren't involved in the sport enough to bother to know. Maybe you would just want to know everything about every grassroots type event, but most don't have the time, or just don't care, to. You can be a grassroots racer and only know the sport you are in, there's nothing wrong with that.. just like you don't have to know every grassroots effort to be a grassroots racer.

No Rado got his records with Redline Time Attack, not NASA TT. He broke the Time Attack records with them. Global Time Attack is what he is apart of now (he also runs NASA). Of course he was known in Drag racing before TA.

Serra Serra is the American team who rivals the Cyber Evo. I take it you don't pick up any of the car mags either correct (Super Street, Modified, Import Tuner...etc).

Guess Sean Whites not a snowboarder... It's a motorsport imo, so we just cordially disagree there. It takes skill to perform and I respect it and enjoy watching as well as doing.

To answer your last question, yes I would. Plenty of drivers we all know of and not have anything to do with their disciplines, Ken Block, Michael Schumacer, Sebastian Loeb, Sebatian Vettel and I have nothing to do with their respected disciplines. Ross Petty, Vaughn Jr., Rhys Millen, Daijiro. Or GT drivers like Orido, Tanaguchi, Ken Gushi and other Japanese drivers. I know that Frankie Muniz races in one of the series. I've watched the Mustang only race series before and have seen enough to know those drivers. Drag racing, I can name guys there too.

I would watch Spec Miata if I could ever catch an event on TV or go to one, but I never see advertisements. Just like I never see advertisements for ALMS except for the occasional Road Atlanta email I get.

[cc700]

wait... the tC was relevant?

[Stigmaru]

Lots of girls like to drive the tC. It's like another alternative to a Civic

[tripjammer]

Originally Posted by cc700

wait... the tC was relevant?

It was and is the FR-S's big sister....The LFA is the FR-S's big daddy...

[Dragonitti]

People asked for a RWD tC and we get the FR-S....sounds like a great combo to have the original sporty FWD tC and have RWD FR-S sibling.

I will have both tC going full track duty once I get an FR-S though.

Just a thought, but you do know that females will be all over this car right? Will that make the FR-S a chick car then or will you just have a biased attitude, or perhaps just grow up and eventually realize that cars are just cars

[DrunkenMime]

TC is a totally different type of car...can't really compare the two imo. One is a sporty econo-hatch...the other is a sports car....keep it the way it is...you gotta pay if you wanna play

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

People asked for a RWD tC and we get the FR-S....sounds like a great combo to have the original sporty FWD tC and have RWD FR-S sibling.

I will have both tC going full track duty once I get an FR-S though.

Just a thought, but you do know that females will be all over this car right? Will that make the FR-S a chick car then or will you just have a biased attitude, or perhaps just grow up and eventually realize that cars are just cars

I don't see females being all over a FRS/BRZ. Will there be some? Sure. Mostly those who are into cars/car enthusiasts. I personally don't see many females drive S2000s, 370z, or RX8s. I would say the split is like 80/20 in favor of males. The tC however I swear is 50/50 or even 40/60 in favor of women.

[WolfpackS2k]

Look I'm not bashing Scion for their lack of racing "cred". They've done the best they can with the hand their dealt from Toyota, which is a FWD hatchback. Doesn't change the fact that they have no racing heritage and (until now) a capable sports car platform to work with.

I still maintain it was dumb of Toyota to create Scion. I don't understand why anyone thinks Toyota would do any harm to their brand image by attracting younger buyers. I can't think of a single auto manufacturer that aspires to attract only the older demographic. And if Toyota wants their youthful image back so bad why is Scion only in the US? Do they think we're not smart or something?

back to OT I think the tC is a great car for what is it meant to be. Kind of a modern day (slightly inferior) Integra...I mean what can you do since Honda/Acura killed off one of their most beloved models.

[SVTSHC]

Different market niches. No matter which way you slice it, FWD will ALWAYS do better in inclement weather. In snow the weight over the front wheels added to the simple fact that the front wheels are both steering and driving gives it a huge advantage over a RWD car. Fact of the matter is most drivers wouldn't know how to handle oversteer (most end up overcompensating and spinning their ride) as well as they would understeer where things like ABS and DSC (that's what we call it at BMW, not sure what toyota's name for stability control is) make it as easy as pressing your brakes and turning while gasing it.