JD Powers quality survey

[Brzetto]

Originally Posted by Dorb

Wow, Scion took it on the chin because of the bribery... Last place! I think Subaru was around 26th,27th.

Truly fixed. Also Chevrolet near the top of the list? It doesn't get anymore obvious than that. Must be nice having nefarious money that can be used to buy ratings.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by jariten

From a previous thread:

I don't really take the IQS seriously. C&D did an article a few years ago

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-study-feature

Cliff's notes from the article, JD Power equally counts 'people being annoyed with buttons on a radio' with 'people with blown engines' as 'problems'. No individual or company can see the details unless they're willing to pay JD Power some large sum of money.

Aka, the survey is nonsense and no one should pay attention to it.

Quoted for truth.

JD Power Surveys don't mean squat. Look closely at the methods they employ and anyone with any technical inkling will understand that "issues" are not clearly defined.

On the other hand, I would like stats like "# of engine code alerts", "# of transmission failures" (with the word failure clearly defined - ie: a clunk going into reverse is not a failure but a gear shifter jumping out of a gear is), that would make my car buying a WHOLE lot more educated than this crap.

[WolfpackS2k]

JD Power is THE standard, so nice try.

And if car makers want to make more complicated cars then they need to make sure they get it right. Plain and simple.

[jariten]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

JD Power is THE standard, so nice try.

And if car makers want to make more complicated cars then they need to make sure they get it right. Plain and simple.

I don't dispute it's the standard... It's just really misleading the way they do it. If they called it something like a 'general satisfaction survey' rather than 'initial quality' it'd be okay. Quality implies to most folks: 'is this going to break? ' not 'is this intuitive?'. If they made the details available to a regular buyer for a nominal fee it could be really useful when shopping for new cars, but as far as I know they don't.

And I completely agree that manufacturers should do things right the first time or suffer consequences... I just don't like the way JD Power couches things then releases public facing awards without any real details.

[BlueSTaR]

Originally Posted by Brzetto

Truly fixed. Also Chevrolet near the top of the list? It doesn't get anymore obvious than that. Must be nice having nefarious money that can be used to buy ratings.

Also, does anyone find is "odd" that American companies own large quantities of stock in Shucks and whatnot?

[Frost]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

JD Power is THE standard, so nice try.

And if car makers want to make more complicated cars then they need to make sure they get it right. Plain and simple.

That is in all ways, the anti-Christ for a better society.

Just because it is the standard (which I agree it is) - it doesn't mean it's not wrong. If society continues with that logic, then: a) slavery is still ok b) women should not be allowed to vote or have any say c) my club is bigger than yours so I win this arguement.

See? Standards change (hopefully they always rise) and JD Power "Initial Quality" standard is a farce.

It also doesn't take into consideration that a person buying a Porsche versus your everyday Joe buying a Kia has different views of "problems" or "issues". Eg: the Porsche guy claims his seats are a little "off" versus the Kia man saying his seat bottom fell through are very different issues.

I like stats but stats can and often are skewed without transparency.

Eg: If I built 1000 engines last year (all the same identical) and only 1 was a lemon, I have a 0.1% failure rate. So the next year I build more engines, say 2000 engines but have 3 lemons - thus a 0.15% failure rate, my failure rate has now jumped FIFTY PERCENT!!! OMG! TERRIBLE! NEVER BUY ENGINES FROM THIS GUY AGAIN! Or you could also say my lemon yield TRIPLED!

This is why I always pause at numbers. Numbers demand scrutiny and the masses can be brainwashed. Those of us who do understand this need to be on guard for this smoke and mirrors act.

[jariten]

Originally Posted by Frost

That is in all ways, the anti-Christ for a better society.

Just because it is the standard (which I agree it is) - it doesn't mean it's not wrong. If society continues with that logic, then: a) slavery is still ok b) women should not be allowed to vote or have any say c) my club is bigger than yours so I win this arguement.

Frost, I am on your side, but if you equate car surveys to the anti-Christ, slavery, women's rights; No one in their right mind will take you seriously.

Your points about statistics are spot on, let them speak for themselves.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Frost

That is in all ways, the anti-Christ for a better society.

Just because it is the standard (which I agree it is) - it doesn't mean it's not wrong. If society continues with that logic, then: a) slavery is still ok b) women should not be allowed to vote or have any say c) my club is bigger than yours so I win this arguement.

See? Standards change (hopefully they always rise) and JD Power "Initial Quality" standard is a farce.

It also doesn't take into consideration that a person buying a Porsche versus your everyday Joe buying a Kia has different views of "problems" or "issues". Eg: the Porsche guy claims his seats are a little "off" versus the Kia man saying his seat bottom fell through are very different issues.

I like stats but stats can and often are skewed without transparency.

Eg: If I built 1000 engines last year (all the same identical) and only 1 was a lemon, I have a 0.1% failure rate. So the next year I build more engines, say 2000 engines but have 3 lemons - thus a 0.15% failure rate, my failure rate has now jumped FIFTY PERCENT!!! OMG! TERRIBLE! NEVER BUY ENGINES FROM THIS GUY AGAIN! Or you could also say my lemon yield TRIPLED!

This is why I always pause at numbers. Numbers demand scrutiny and the masses can be brainwashed. Those of us who do understand this need to be on guard for this smoke and mirrors act.

You know that Porsche suffers in this survey because people complain about brake dust on their wheels. The brake dust gets all over the wheels because Porsches come with high performance pads. So that's a dumb reason to get knocked on the survey.

It happens to all makers, in some way or another, because most consumers are stupid.

[Turbowned]

The initial quality of my BRZ is excellent, yay late '13 production!

[Frost]

Originally Posted by jariten

Frost, I am on your side, but if you equate car surveys to the anti-Christ, slavery, women's rights; No one in their right mind will take you seriously.

Your points about statistics are spot on, let them speak for themselves.

Actually, it isn't too big of a stretch. Too many people nowadays get too comfortable with status quo. Nonetheless, we have society becoming too reliant on looking at the surface and no one wants to roll up their sleeves and get dirty. I see that in all the industries I visit (manufacturing, controls, building automation, etc.) and nobody asks "Why?" or "Wtf?" in a meaningful way.

Now I am ranting.

But to the post about Porsche owners complaining about brake dust - I know one! Gods I want to smack him when he utters that.

[WolfpackS2k]

[gily25]

In 2005 they rated my 2005 Jeep Wrangler as being unreliable etc. etc. guess what's on the road and never had a major issue. Is it loud, yes most convertibles are, does it get bad mpg, yes it's a box with a tent attached, does it have limited storage, yes it's cut small to be nimble off-road...so some shitty soccer mom rates it low for all those reasons the ranking should suffer? For 2007 Jeep took the feedback to heart and made the wrangler wider and quieter, etc etc. to impress mommy, sales fell...the upcoming redesign is supposed to bring the Wrangler back to it's nimbler, more rugged history. Just goes to show whether you should listen to enthusiasts or bitchy cry babies.

These surveys are about as useless as the yahoo articles, "5 hottest cars of 2013" where one of the cars is the Honda Fit.

[Admiral Ballsy]

Originally Posted by Frost

But to the post about Porsche owners complaining about brake dust - I know one!

My 427 convertible does that too, but I didn't complain about it on the survey.

My BRZ has been perfect, from a QA perspective, but there were non-quality things I marked down on the Power survey.

Do they call it a quality survey anymore? Seems like "customer satisfaction" would be more apropos.

[wbradley]

I completed the JD Power surver recently. For sure the consistently faulty headlight enclosures brought things way down. That is the one problem almost everyone had up to a certain production date. It is also the only problem I have had to date.