Sprintex or Vortech, which setup has more potential?

[fenton]

One thing i have always wondered is what they hell is that huge dip on most vortech graphs above 7500? Alot of the graphs i see take a 20 or 30 hp hit, they look they should continue upwards but just kinda die. I know its not pressure related, is it heat or timing or something?

[phloozy]

Here are a few quotes I found from a vortech owner, helped me make my decision

"There are a whole lot of bugs"
"I thought you could just throw it on an drive it"
"Would I do this again to my own car? No fucking way"

/fuckingwithyou

But on the real, if you don't plan on pushing the car and plan on really only using the low end map like you said you may want to give the innovate kit a go.

[civicdrivr]

Originally Posted by fenton

One thing i have always wondered is what they hell is that huge dip on most vortech graphs above 7500? Alot of the graphs i see take a 20 or 30 hp hit, they look they should continue upwards but just kinda die. I know its not pressure related, is it heat or timing or something?

Easy fix - keep the stock rev limit.

But seriously, it could be fuel related. I have upgraded injectors and pump and had absolutely no problem making power right up to 7600rpm, no dips what so ever. With that said, it could be the difference between a canned e-tune vs a live dyno tune.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[1010110]

it is really hard to compare vortech and innovate because one comes with an intercooler and one does not. Since we can't get the innovate intercooler here in the US the only way to get an apples to apples comparison is to run the vortech without an intercooler. Why has nobody tried this? ;-)

[diss7]

I have an intercooled innovate/bullet kit in my possession ready to go on.

I'm happy to take this to the limit on 98RON (93?) octane. I can get a baseline run, stock IC kit flash tune run, and a peak run.

I'm happy to provide this information to all in about 3 weeks, as that's basically how long the tuner I will use is booked out for.

What I need from those knowledgable watching/commenting in this thread, is to comment about specifically what additional parts I will need to achieve a proper peak run.

Pump, injectors, map sensor, headers, full catless exhaust, what pulley/psi... Etc

I'd rather be told what I will need, rather than just leave it in the hands of my tuner to have to learn/discover what others will already know. (They haven't tuned an 86 yet, I'm the only 86 owner in christchurch doing any performance modifications)

I won't be buying headers/exhaust. I can have all that fabbed up locally by an excellent fabricator. Or should I do a peak run on an otherwise completely stock car.

We can get this info.

Tell me what I need to get/do to provide it to you.

[448hpsti]

Originally Posted by fenton

One thing i have always wondered is what they hell is that huge dip on most vortech graphs above 7500? Alot of the graphs i see take a 20 or 30 hp hit, they look they should continue upwards but just kinda die. I know its not pressure related, is it heat or timing or something?

Cams

[ft_sjo]

Originally Posted by diss7

I have an intercooled innovate/bullet kit in my possession ready to go on.

I'm happy to take this to the limit on 98RON (93?) octane. I can get a baseline run, stock IC kit flash tune run, and a peak run.

I'm happy to provide this information to all in about 3 weeks, as that's basically how long the tuner I will use is booked out for.

What I need from those knowledgable watching/commenting in this thread, is to comment about specifically what additional parts I will need to achieve a proper peak run.

Pump, injectors, map sensor, headers, full catless exhaust, what pulley/psi... Etc

I'd rather be told what I will need, rather than just leave it in the hands of my tuner to have to learn/discover what others will already know. (They haven't tuned an 86 yet, I'm the only 86 owner in christchurch doing any performance modifications)

I won't be buying headers/exhaust. I can have all that fabbed up locally by an excellent fabricator. Or should I do a peak run on an otherwise completely stock car.

We can get this info.

Tell me what I need to get/do to provide it to you.

Exhaust manifold will limit you.

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by VietnamPhenom

I for one love the whine of a supercharger. I had an 03 Accord V6 that was supercharged. I know the Vortech has better top end power, but I cant get away from the whine. Here is an youtube clip of my Accord getting tuned/dynode with the supercharger. I believe the whine isn't as bad as my old Accord's supercharger.

That SC whine is quite loud.. Honda V6... A great engine in search of a worthy chassis..

[scraejtp]

Originally Posted by phloozy

I can't see how vortech is a better option than the FA20Club, plus turbo will have even more headroom for power.

Like others have said, this is a supercharger comparison. Some people don't want a glowing hot turbo and exhaust front and center of the engine. The turbo also has more complexity with extra boost management and piping which is more places for failure.

I have thought about going turbo multiple times, but the above issues always bring me back. AVO/PTuning kits are more serious contenders due to the mounting location, but AVO has no more headroom than Vortech (peak power) and PTuning is in a different price bracket.

Also the centrifugal blowers linear building of boost seems to always be discussed as a negative vs the PD blower. It does limit your power at lower engine speeds, but I like that it lets you drive normally without building boost. (somewhat similar to a turbo not spooling at low engine loads)

[Turbowned]

Originally Posted by phloozy

Deciderd to make a video while on my way to lunch to show what the innovate kit sounds like. I would not call it a loud whistle, its pretty awesome.

Thanks for clarifying! I've watched one too many Kenne Bell Cobra videos in my time and I was expecting it to sound more like this:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87n8jhVO784"]04 Kenne Bell Cobra fly-bys / wot passes (643rwhp/613rwtq) - YouTube[/ame]

[regal]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Here is the thing on paper there is no comparison, its Vortech. Its a complete kit with intercooler for street and track and runs without drama in both venues on any fuel.
Until they intercool the Innovate its half baked.

Now real world Innovate tuned on 93 or E85 on the street feels great. The difference is all torque. But what it gains there it loses to the Vortech up top so really as you said a question of who you are.

I would think if you are dumpin over 4k you want a kit that will handle anything.

~60 crank hp over stock is not half backed. The Vortech is for the track , for the street the base no intercooler innovate tune is reporting a 30% gain over stock, that puts it right up to a base Cayman which for $3700 bucks is a bargain unless several vendors are just outright liars.

Much more output than +30% and you are looking to burn up your manifold cats, prematurely wear out your clutch, and risk disintegrating the Aisin tranny which I don't think is rated anywhere near a 300hp crank hp car. Might be good for 10k-30k mi, who knows? Modifying a street car can becomes an endless cycle.

The Innovate just looks like a clean install with the lowest risk because it is a very modest increase up top. Low-midrange its a decent boost for the $'s.

That said if the header+tune dynos are real I'd probably be just as content with that alone as it looks to put the FRS at an S2k level. That's real low risk and some of the dynos are pretty close to the innovate on pump.

For now a tune (hopefully not EcuTek which permanently voids the warranty) and a quality header is the smart way to go. Its reversible has practically no risk, tuned right and stops the engine from sucking its own exhaust like a sht eating dog which cures the torque dip.

I appreciate early adopters and the videos with experience sharing. Its obvious that the Vortech has the most potential but that costs lots and lots of money to make it withstand the dd street abuse, 50k miles from now I don't want to be fuking around out in the could with a broken belt or froen bearings, replacing a tranny. That's why I see the innovate with all its shortcomings as a reasonable alternative.

[civicdrivr]

Originally Posted by regal

hopefully not EcuTek which permanently voids the warranty.

Lulz wut?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by regal

~60 crank hp over stock is not half backed. The Vortech is for the track , for the street the base no intercooler innovate tune is reporting a 30% gain over stock, that puts it right up to a base Cayman which for $3700 bucks is a bargain unless several vendors are just outright liars.

Much more output than +30% and you are looking to burn up your manifold cats, prematurely wear out your clutch, and risk disintegrating the Aisin tranny which I don't think is rated anywhere near a 300hp crank hp car. Might be good for 10k-30k mi, who knows? Modifying a street car can becomes an endless cycle.

The Innovate just looks like a clean install with the lowest risk because it is a very modest increase up top. Low-midrange its a decent boost for the $'s.

That said if the header+tune dynos are real I'd probably be just as content with that alone as it looks to put the FRS at an S2k level. That's real low risk and some of the dynos are pretty close to the innovate on pump.

For now a tune (hopefully not EcuTek which permanently voids the warranty) and a quality header is the smart way to go. Its reversible has practically no risk, tuned right and stops the engine from sucking its own exhaust like a sht eating dog which cures the torque dip.

I appreciate early adopters and the videos with experience sharing. Its obvious that the Vortech has the most potential but that costs lots and lots of money to make it withstand the dd street abuse, 50k miles from now I don't want to be fuking around out in the could with a broken belt or froen bearings, replacing a tranny. That's why I see the innovate with all its shortcomings as a reasonable alternative.

I would argue that a twin screw blower with no intercooler and no iat will, lb for lb, hp for hp, be less reliable than any intercooled, properly tuneable system.

Just because it makes a lot less power doesn't mean it's the safest option. It's the hardest to tune from what I hear (due to the inexplicably missing iat), which implies the opposite.

[FRSRAVEN]

Long post ahead...

My only concern with the Innovate kit has been the lack of an IAT sensor post blower. The lack of an intercooler is moot for the 75mm pulley. What is scary though, and perhaps the key sticking point for several people in this thread, is without an intercooler, you REALLY need to know what your IAT's are. So the lack of an intercooler AND the lack of an IAT sensor is what a lot of people are taking issue with.

That said, with the aftermarket solutions in the pipeline, such as FA20 Clubs IAT plate, the above concerns are alleviated. For those looking for maximum horsepower, or extended track sessions, you'll want the intercooled kit. But for the majority of users, the non-intercooled kit is fine. And personally, I appreciate the fact that I don't have to spend extra money for a part that is not mission critical. Remember, this is a twin screw positive displacement supercharger. The temperature differential pre and post blower is not as large as a turbo or even a centrifugal supercharger.

I appreciate posts from reputable tuners, such as Moto-Mike, and others that are confident that the lack of an IAT sensor isn't crucial. You may be able to accurately measure the temperature rise as air enters and exits the blower (perk of a twin screw). You may even be able to calculate heat-soak based on a ratio of external air temperatures and engine coolant and oil temperatures (Moto-Mike alluded to such in a prior post on this forum). But, that type of calculation is complex, and open to significant error. Without an IAT in the intake manifold you simply do not know what is going on with the air entering the engine.

The picture will become clear once we get some of those IAT sensor plates on peoples cars. Then we'll see the big picture. Perhaps Moto-Mike and others were right all along, or perhaps they weren't. We simple don't know.


As for which kit is better? I personally like the Innovate kit. I think it looks more OEM, and I appreciate the engineering simplicity that went into it. I personally think its a more robust system. I like the fact that it maintains the factory airbox, and MAF sensor location. Makes tuning easier, and utilizes a well engineered factory system that has yet to be surpassed by an aftermarket offering. What I think they missed the boat on was finding a way to get IAT readings post blower.

As for the intercooler, I understand why Innovate decided to order the kits without it. It gave them a price point that other units couldn't touch, for those that don't necessarily need or want the performance overhead offered by other units.

The Vortech kit on the other hand has matured well, and has more samples in circulation. It offers more performance overhead due to a larger supercharger, and is arguably more proven. It also costs more.

But, for the sake of clarity, the Vortech isn't some foolproof system either. There have been several design changes since its release, and several well documented issues. Its been out longer, allowing it to mature more, but it still isn't fool proof. Also its a more complicated install, which for an apartment dwelling gearhead like me, is something I need to factor in.

/long post

Personally I don't have a horse in this race. There are no cognitive dissonance issues clouding my post. I'm just an observer who is desperately trying to figure out what to spend my money on. At this point I'm waiting for the Jackson Racing kit to be released. That or I'll just say frack-it and go turbo...