Sprintex or Vortech, which setup has more potential?

[phloozy]

Originally Posted by regal

Smartest strategy. Also I wouldn't be surprised if the FA20 adapter plate gives less accurate data. Its going to be several months before we really know who cracks the Innovate open.

There are rumors that Innovate bought the non-intercooled kits (a lot of them) and have to sell them all before they offer the intercooled version.

I hope this isn't true, when I look at the Innovate manifold intuitively it just looks like an intercooler is going to rob CFM. All this car really needs is 200ft-lbs of torque for the street. If Motor-mike can do that on PUMP gas without an intercooler we all win. $3700 is a bargain for 200 ft-lbs of torque.

Exactly how I feel

[Turbowned]

Originally Posted by utekineir

^

I've been trying to read through whatever material I can since May when I decided to get one of these cars. The only conclusion i've come to is that there is no conclusion as it currently stands.

Fact of the matter is

1) Its a new platform, theres still a lot to iron out and development and improvement for the current solutions on the market. None of the current products have fully matured, and theres still some not even out yet (jackson).

The back and forth shitstorm that makes up the entirety of this thread is proof of that.

2) We will have snow soon. I'll be garaging this car and driving my forester. Looks like you recently picked up an old sti.



May i suggest putting snow tires on the sti, having a goddamn blast this winter, and seeing how the dust has settled by spring?

I think you're right. I had initially planned to wait a year after purchasing the car to add boost, and I think it might be best to stick to that plan. There is still a lot of work to be done and with the Jackson Racing and possibly Kraftwerks kits on the horizon, I'd hate to jump into something and then wish I had waited later. The BRZ is going off the road mid-October and won't come out of storage until April. Of course it will be in storage at my friend's speed shop, so it could still come out of storage faster than when it went in!



Cannot wait to drive the STi in snow, muahahahaha! "Snowbank? What snowbank?"

[Turbowned]

Originally Posted by Wonderbar

Wow another one of these threads.

Every kit on the market (with the exception of the e-charger, don't take much offense) is 300whp capable. Some hit it easier than others and they will all need the same supporting mods to do it (injectors, clutch, good tune, etc). At the end of the day it matters on what your goals are and how you want to get there.

What do you want to do with the car? How much do you have to spend? What do you want the car to feel like? Etc... Are all questions you need to analyze when planning your build.

You're about 80 posts too late Wonderbar. Trust me, I did a search and could not come up with a thread that speficically answered my question. I want a fast car. Budget is not really a problem; I just don't want to touch the stock block and this car will primarily be a road car so usability and reliability are key. I want it to go faster, and although this car is not about the numbers, less than 250whp is going to leave me dissatisfied. Thus far it seems as though the Vortech is more capable of making peak power, but the Sprintex has a more robust midrange and only loses out after 7,000RPM, which isn't really that big of a deal I suppose. The other thing I have to ask myself is can I live with the whine of that twin screw? It sounds awfully loud!

[utekineir]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

The BRZ is going off the road mid-October and won't come out of storage until April. Of course it will be in storage at my friend's speed shop, so it could still come out of storage faster than when it went in!



Cannot wait to drive the STi in snow, muahahahaha! "Snowbank? What snowbank?"

I'll be holding out till salt/whenever the temps make the tires hockeypucks then till whenever the roads are salt free. Doubtful my wallet gets the same rest the car will though.

Put new blizzaks on the forester last year, jesus what a switch from the old ones it was on. Just ridiculous. As it sits right now minus the lack of 6spd/dccd its closer to a modded sti than it is to being a forester.

[phloozy]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

You're about 80 posts too late Wonderbar. Trust me, I did a search and could not come up with a thread that speficically answered my question. I want a fast car. Budget is not really a problem; I just don't want to touch the stock block and this car will primarily be a road car so usability and reliability are key. I want it to go faster, and although this car is not about the numbers, less than 250whp is going to leave me dissatisfied. Thus far it seems as though the Vortech is more capable of making peak power, but the Sprintex has a more robust midrange and only loses out after 7,000RPM, which isn't really that big of a deal I suppose. The other thing I have to ask myself is can I live with the whine of that twin screw? It sounds awfully loud!

I am on the stock airbox and it isnt noticeable. It blends in very nicely

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

You're about 80 posts too late Wonderbar. Trust me, I did a search and could not come up with a thread that speficically answered my question. I want a fast car. Budget is not really a problem; I just don't want to touch the stock block and this car will primarily be a road car so usability and reliability are key. I want it to go faster, and although this car is not about the numbers, less than 250whp is going to leave me dissatisfied. Thus far it seems as though the Vortech is more capable of making peak power, but the Sprintex has a more robust midrange and only loses out after 7,000RPM, which isn't really that big of a deal I suppose. The other thing I have to ask myself is can I live with the whine of that twin screw? It sounds awfully loud!

I think you're going to struggle to find a definitive answer between the two options, given all that you said here. A lot of what you're asking for can only be determined by you and your own experience. This is going to boil down to spending some time with both cars and driving them in more than just a "test drive" setting so that you can get a real feel for how the cars behave.

Reliability is an unknown variable at this point until we see long-term results. We could theorize all day long but at the end of that day, it's all theory.

Numbers are irrelevant given that you're comparing two things that aren't exactly the same, and your goal isn't necessarily "top-end power" or "immediate power response" - it sounds like it's more of a drivability concern and how the car will behave as you go through your normal scenarios.

Any guys local to you that would oblige?

[Wonderbar]

Originally Posted by Turbowned

You're about 80 posts too late Wonderbar. Trust me, I did a search and could not come up with a thread that speficically answered my question. I want a fast car. Budget is not really a problem; I just don't want to touch the stock block and this car will primarily be a road car so usability and reliability are key. I want it to go faster, and although this car is not about the numbers, less than 250whp is going to leave me dissatisfied. Thus far it seems as though the Vortech is more capable of making peak power, but the Sprintex has a more robust midrange and only loses out after 7,000RPM, which isn't really that big of a deal I suppose. The other thing I have to ask myself is can I live with the whine of that twin screw? It sounds awfully loud!

I am notorious for coming well after you've finished. (Giggity).

I agree. The biggest things that I liked with the vortech is that it still felt smooth like stock with a plenty more power and torque. It's super heat efficient. It has self contained oil. It's not overly loud. All of these made it more appealing to me putting it on my daily driver.

Jeff @PERRIN has hit 300whp on pump gas with his car and then detuned it because he was maxing the stock injectors. That's on 91 octane. I'm going to make sure I hit 300whp on pump gas before I do e85.

You don't get the "surge" of torque under 4000rpms but in my opinion, I wouldn't want that anyhow. Any time I'm driving for fun, the car is over 4,000 rpms and going all the way to its redline. Even in autocross, you should/could/would want to be in the 4k-redline range.

[Wonderbar]

Oh btw, I wasn't bitching at you about searchin or not, I was saying "wow" about how th thread instantly turns into pissing contests and bashing. Sorry of that came across wrong, I wasn't close to being specific enough for it to make sense.

[Dezoris]

After about 12 years on car websites I have forum PMS. So I am sorry for maybe taking the wrong approach.

I should have just responded in more simple terms, instead of trying to raise questions that I will never get answers too.

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

@Dezoris Who the fuck do you think you are?

My perception of you is that you gather up all the bullshit that goes around on forums and then make pretty videos about them. Then all the bullshitters worship you and it goes to your head and you think you are some kind of authority on the subject matter.

You're not.

Yes, you do 'bring something to the community'. You bring bullshit.

It's more than likely what you're asking for is just irrelevant nonsense, a bit like this question "Why was the MAF left in the factory location where is becomes totally useless?".


I know you're not going to change what you do, and your followers will protest and throw mud at this post, but use this to understand that more qualified people, are laughing at you. I don't doubt you mean well, I am sure you think you're doing the right thing, but I am not convinced what you aim to promote is not what you are conveying.

You and guys like Regal sit back and troll almost any topic. The king of the know it alls without every providing any solid information, let alone your actual experience with car, talking heads.

You and Regal don't even have the Vortech or Innovate Kit installed, so all of a sudden you are the authorities?

I am glad you felt the need defend a Moto-Mike and Innovate, but the questions were directed at them not you.

Clearly I don't profess to know it all, and am trying to learn more by talking to guys like, Toni, Jason, Perrin, owners of the cars with different FI and NA.

I just flew 1500 miles to talk to owners of the car and watch the tuning process of different kits out of pocket.

I will be flying down to talk with Ohlins and Essex about suspension and brake testing for this car this month, this is all to learn about this platform and share the experience.

So while I appreciate your opinion, it's clear you have something personal against me based on your response. It is actually degrading.

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

You'll be glad to know the MAP sensor supplied with the chargecooler kit has a built-in IAT sensor. Unfortunately Sprintex weren't sharp enough to actually make use of it! I will.

Thanks for the info, maybe you should work for Innovate.

Originally Posted by regal

A statement like this just shows Dezoris has zero knowledge of basic supercharging principles that are based on physics -thermodynamics 101 for who went past high school. He is getting bad info from "gear head" tuners and spreading those lack of understanding basic concepts of forced induction.

He wants to see Sprintex's thermo calculations that make the thing predictable without an intercooler, why would their engineers share that info with a guy whose dash panel looks like a bad 70's disco flashback

@Regal

You have been starting threads and posting nonsense about the direct injector seals, spreading opinions about something you never even dealt with hands on. You claimed you had DI failures and this car is destined for doom. When I asked you to remove your own to check you always backed down. For someone who knows theromdynamics 101 and complex engineering ideals you have yet once pulled your own car apart to prove or help with this issue. Just spreading fear.

You are one of the reasons I dumped over $600 to do a DI seal video and spent countless hours on the phone with people from Toyota and tuners who run the car to get information.

When I posted the video: your response?
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=77

"Also the post above mine is correct you didn't use the tool properly.
So when you have time should edit all of that where you have are using the tool backwards and correct saying there is a TSB.
We do appreciate the videos, DI is new to the world so don't cancel Turbosky's check for the lack of insight with the tool"

I spent 30+ hours shooting and editing a video about replacing the seals and your first real response was I did it wrong because someone else said it.
You did not even read the service manual, never took the DI system apart apart but of course ready to say I did it wrong and to fix it.

This is why I have PMS with this forum.

Bottom line is you don't have the Vortech or Innovate Kit but come in here and bash me for asking questions?

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

I don't know/care about previous quotes/opinion. There may be some confusion where people are saying 'MAF' when they mean 'IAT', just because the OE setup has them both in the same unit. Any decent tuner shouldn't be constrained by that fact, unless changing a MAP sensor and adding a wire is too much of a challenge.

If an enthusiast like me can do it, anyone can. I won't be making a flashy video about it, though.

You know what I meant, IAT.

It's so simple right? What are the actual boost IATs or real IATs?

Innovate never tested this when they released the kit. To me that is just completely unbelievable.

The fact you have to do this, or buy a plate from Namless or FA20 to do something that really should have been built into the kit right from day one is just a major thing about the Innovate kit that makes it not complete out of the box.

This thread is talking about what kit has more potential right?

[Calum]

Originally Posted by regal

There is a difference between better and useless. The MAF sensor is not useless with the Innovate kit, that is pure nonsense.

You can't defy physics, the ideal gas law PV=nRT means that if you know the volume and temperature inand the boost after you know the temperature after boost because n has been iterated. That's Sprintex/Innovate/Moto-Mike's big secret that Dezoris is so paranoid about because the guys he talks to don't have a clue.

PV=nRT is the ideal gas law because it's ideal, not reality. It doesn't take into account any other heat source and there's no way to account for those extra heat sources in the tune as they will change with time independent of anything else. Even if this compressor was running in a temperature controlled room there would still be extra heat generated internally due to friction.

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by swift996

I'm very interested in seeing the IAT data because nothing has been published yet so it's going off of theory at this point.

@Dezoris I had 3 back to back dyno pulls in 100 degree heat and all three were almost identical. The shop (Pure Automotive) did the first pull in 3rd gear as it was super hot and their practice for the dyno day that day. However, after the initial pull, he did 2 right after in 4th and all looked the same. Granted this was on E50 but legitimate.

By far you have been the most helpful on this forum with this kit. I appreciate it. I was looking for data on 91-93 octane on the back to back pulls. I just want to see if these guys are cherry picking perfect dynos and not showing the complete story.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by F1point4

Going back to the original question: The innovate debate above and the Vortech intricacies discussed ad-nauseum aside I think the key message everyone needs to understand doing any sort of FI

You have to pay to play.


Are you ready for
> no more warranty for the motor, or at all for that matter. Most don't want their dealer to know what they have done.
> Cooling - Radiators/Oil coolers
> Tyres
> Brakes
> Catch cans
> more frequent fluid changes

Probably is a whole ton more.

aside from the warranty bit (which is definitely true), there's a lot of hyperbole there.

- i live in florida and haven't done anything at all additional for cooling. i've been logging coolant and oil temps often, they are the exact same as before the turbo install. while cooling upgrades are certainly necessary for the track (just like on a stock 86), they're definitely not for normal driving. this situation is the same FI or otherwise. you wouldn't track a stock 86 without cooling, either.

- all tires are wear items. with traction control on it's no worse than stock. with it off, it is

- brakes... again has very little to do with your engine. if you track the car you'll eat brake pads. if you have a turbo, you'll be going a bit faster and maybe eat them up a bit faster as well. doesn't apply at all to the 95% of us that don't track the cars, and really isn't impacted much by the turbo. you're burning through them in any case, if you use your car that way.

- catch cans... completely unnecessary unless you care about being 'green'. vent to air... it's worked for decades. again the only reason you may 'need' a catch can is for tracking the car... to pass inspection.

- i change my oil at 3k miles whether i have a turbo or not.

i agree you have to pay to play... it's not a cheap hobby. but to say that FI forces your hand and absolutely requires all of the above is just not accurate.

[ft_sjo]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

This thread is talking about what kit has more potential right?

Indeed it was, and your attack on vendors is nothing to do with it, hence my comments. I don't really object to you spreading your unqualified FUD in your own pretty little threads but when you start invading good quality and honest threads with misconceptions then that slightly offends me, hence my post.

I skimmed over the rest of your reply but didn't find anything of value, so please excuse me for not multi-quoting some pointless forum retort.

I assure you though, I have nothing personal against you. I don't know you from Adam. Or Bob. Or Jeff. You could delete your face from the internet and have no name and you'd get the same response.


Now let's get this thread back in track.. without the FUD..


oh and p.s.: attemting to troll/harass* me via pm won't work.



* delete as appropriate

[Frostyman]

I'll say this: Stock car + twin screw = electric vehicle noise levels. I am not kidding on this. The stock exhaust is so quiet already, the stock airbox without the noise maker is REALLY quiet. Put the SC in there on that stock system, and you can barely hear the car at all. Turn the radio to 20, and you can't hear it at all. Needless to say, you gotta crank the radio to 40 for any good music, so you'll never hear the thing.