Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidONE

How about RS-3's on a bumpy track? Would you suggest leaving VSC on?

From what I gather with @orthojoe's critique is that you should never stick the inside of the corner regardless how slow or how much more grip u have available and stick with the racing line at all times as a novice level driver? Would you agree with that advice?

Absolutely. Get in the habit of being on the right line. Anyone going around you needs to go off-line and negotiate the pass safely. You, being passed, stay on line.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidONE

Slow down? I think I'm going pretty slow already, no? With my coasting into and gradual throttle(not stomping) increase out of the turn. Besides not tracking out what else is wrong about my lines. I think my lines through the esses were decent, no? Also, berms. Should hit it, as in roll over it with inside wheel, every time and every turn?

Here's a data point for you that I think will get the gears turning in your mind.

When I drive @ImperiousRex's BRZ, my Vmin and Vmax are lower than his. Every single time. But I also turn in faster laps. What does that means? It means my average velocity is higher.

At CVR on Sunday, my Vmin was 4mph lower, and my Vmax was 2mph lower than his. I'm definitely slowing down more.

[AZP Installs]

"Slow in, Fast Out"
"Fast in, Spin Out"



-mike

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Advice and wisdom

So is it possible to get a ride along on one of these adventures? There's beer in it for you.

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

As far as other people being grumpy, I think that probably comes from lots of beginners (like us) thinking that they are doing something when we aren't really doing what they are saying. We might not be as brutally bad as we were when we started, but to them we are still way off target. I've improved many orders of magnitude over where I started but when I get a ride with some of the better coaches I am still astonished by how much vastly smoother their driving is. I can't really fully describe it, but the more I get better the more I realize how much further I have to go. Remember when the more experienced people are giving you crap for thinking you are smooth or some such, it is because they are just that much further ahead of us and they are tired of people thinking they are already doing something. Also, I think most everything I said was mentioned with less explanation by other people.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner. Exactly. You hit it on the nose. Everything.

Originally Posted by solidONE

Also I think the 'don't worry about lap times' advice is bull. There is no way for me not to worry about lap times. Just not possible.

To be totally honest, this statement here really set the tone as well as preconceived notions about you that were further solidified by subsequent posts.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

You're worrying too much about lap times.

There you have it. A non d-bag telling you the same thing. Still think it's bull? If so, nobody can help you.

Originally Posted by solidONE

Nah... I think some people are just douchbags with fragile egos. If they dont think you're taking their word as gospel off the bat they start attacking and insulting you for seemingly no reason. Well, I know the reason. I've dealt with many people like this. Mike is a veteran and a very quick one at that. Not a douche. David is a vet. Again, not a douche. APZ Installs and dradernh instructors and racers... veterans. Showed interest in helping and go out of their way to do so. Zero douchbaggary comming from either one. None of those named are out here to prove how much better or how much more they know than others. See the difference?

Some people just don't have the patience or the will power to teach people that refuse to listen and are tired of seeing people on the track like that. I've said nothing about my 'credentials' and could care less about reciting them to you because I have nothing to prove. You asked for advice. Would you prefer to get advice from people that know less than you?

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by ddeflyer

I've improved many orders of magnitude over where I started but when I get a ride with some of the better coaches I am still astonished by how much vastly smoother their driving is. I can't really fully describe it, but the more I get better the more I realize how much further I have to go.

This is definitely true, and where it has hit home the most for me was at an ice racing track this last January with the local Audi club. If you got a ride with someone who was pretty good (but not amazing), you'd see them constantly making little corrections, sawing at the wheel a bit, and similar (though they were still driving impressively fast for how slick the ice was). However, if you got a ride with the best driver at the track, he was going substantially faster, while making fewer inputs (and smaller inputs) and almost never correcting mid corner with anything other than small throttle modulations. It was really an amazing thing to experience.

Now, I will admit that I have very little experience riding around on a dry track (and even less experience driving around on a dry track), but at least on the ice (where I have spent a fair amount of time attempting to drive fast), the smoothness and use of relatively small inputs really made a huge difference.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by chrisl

This is definitely true, and where it has hit home the most for me was at an ice racing track this last January with the local Audi club. If you got a ride with someone who was pretty good (but not amazing), you'd see them constantly making little corrections, sawing at the wheel a bit, and similar (though they were still driving impressively fast for how slick the ice was). However, if you got a ride with the best driver at the track, he was going substantially faster, while making fewer inputs (and smaller inputs) and almost never correcting mid corner with anything other than small throttle modulations. It was really an amazing thing to experience.

Now, I will admit that I have very little experience riding around on a dry track (and even less experience driving around on a dry track), but at least on the ice (where I have spent a fair amount of time attempting to drive fast), the smoothness and use of relatively small inputs really made a huge difference.

Total tangent.

My boss for one of the instructing gigs I have was Alain Prost's teammate for ice racing. Or rather, Alain Prost was his teammate; my boss used to consistently beat Prost.

The guys I instruct for own, collectively, something like 25M in exotic cars...

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

This one is on the house.

T1/2 - You're coasting a LOT. You're cornering without brake OR throttle input. What happens if you corner on a bike with no input? Remember, your steering controls the front tires, throttle controls the rear tires, and brakes control weight transfer.

T3 - you turn in early, hesitate on steering ( i see a low of change in the rate of yawing), and do not track out all the way. You also missed the apex completely. Don't rely on cones.

T4/5 - Again, missed both apexes, and you don't throttle until you're all the way through the turn. But, you did give it maintenance throttle.

T6/7 - You apexed when you shouldn't. You missed the braking zone between the two corners, and turned in for 7 early. You missed track-out on both corners. Again, throttled only when you're completely out. Catching a common theme here? Also, *listen* to your exhaust. you see how you abruptly go from partial to full throttle? That is not a smooth throttle input. Your sawing at the steering wheel, however minute, is not a smooth steering input. You turn into a corner, too much, and get to the apex quickly. Then you ease up to hold the apex, and then continue to hold it too long, and miss track-out. Make the turn one big smooth arc.

T8/9/10 - You need to hug t9 to set up for T10. T10 sets you up for a long straight.

T11/12 - You tuned into 11 too late. T12 you missed track-out.

T13 - Why are you on the middle? out-in-out is the fastest way in a single non-complex corner that is preceeded and followed by a straight. Instead, you late apexed, and then missed track-out again.

T14 - Turn in earlier, track out fully.

T15 - missed track out again.

T16/17 - varies by setup.


CVR is a motorcycle track, and the car lines are identical to bike lines. Pretend you're riding.

As a point for comparison, in a 100% stock car, my average cornering speed is generally 15-20mph faster than yours, except in the T8/9/10 complex. My average on-track velocity in a lap is about 10mph faster (66 in your lap vs 76)

The coasting I was already doing pretty badly before, then after the off at T14 I had in the first non-lead follow really did a number on me. the little bit of confidence I had in my tires left me with that move. That is on the top of my list for things I want to work on.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Shortest distance theory applies, but not in the way @solidONE is applying it. I think he's trying to utilize something that Motortrend noticed; Randy Pobst generally travels a shorter distance on track than most of the magazine editors.

Don't focus on distance. Focus on efficiency.

Nah.. I was just trying to make sure that mustang doesn't get too far away, so he knows I want a point by.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Here's a data point for you that I think will get the gears turning in your mind.

When I drive @ImperiousRex's BRZ, my Vmin and Vmax are lower than his. Every single time. But I also turn in faster laps. What does that means? It means my average velocity is higher.

At CVR on Sunday, my Vmin was 4mph lower, and my Vmax was 2mph lower than his. I'm definitely slowing down more.

Yes, yes. constant but shifting force. It's one thing knowing the theories behind these things, but it's quite another putting to practice. It's hard to quantify 'feel' and 'sensitivity' for these sensations. You get alot more feel from straddling on top of a bike than inside a car and from a steering wheel. I need to do that skidpad workshop.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidONE

Yes, yes. constant but shifting force. It's one thing knowing the theories behind these things, but it's quite another putting to practice. It's hard to quantify 'feel' and 'sensitivity' for these sensations. You get alot more feel from straddling on top of a bike than inside a car and from a steering wheel. I need to do that skidpad workshop.

Bucket seat, solid steering rack bushings, good tires (tires with good sidewall, like a RE11A or AD08R, or NT01), and proper seating position.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

Winner, winner, chicken dinner. Exactly. You hit it on the nose. Everything.



To be totally honest, this statement here really set the tone as well as preconceived notions about you that were further solidified by subsequent posts.



There you have it. A non d-bag telling you the same thing. Still think it's bull? If so, nobody can help you.



Some people just don't have the patience or the will power to teach people that refuse to listen and are tired of seeing people on the track like that. I've said nothing about my 'credentials' and could care less about reciting them to you because I have nothing to prove. You asked for advice. Would you prefer to get advice from people that know less than you?

Okay, maybe I need to explain why I think it's BS. Specially for me. We spend all that time and effort prepping our cars, reading books, articles, watching video, visualizing in our heads all for the desire to go, you guessed it...., fast. Finally one day we make it happen. Our chance to go fast in our car comes. That day we wake our asses up 4-5am in the morning, or sometimes even lose sleep the day prior, drive our asses down to the dessert, anticipating our time on a race track. We wanna go fast, period. As fast as we can. That is the whole point of even going through all that to get our asses there. To know whether or not we are going fast, or at very least faster than last time, we're going to have to check our lap times. So... how can any of us not worry about lap times? Impossible. Even when people say "Lap times doesnt matter." Maybe "worry" is not the right word, but it matters. Matters a whole lot. It matter enough that you put all that time, money and effort to get to the track.

I'm not sure how long ago you were a newb, or whether if you did all the right things to be relatively fast from the get go, always improving, but... Point is, it matters a lot regardless your skill level if you have any sort of passion for this stuff.

[Kiske]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

This one is on the house.

T1/2 - You're coasting a LOT. You're cornering without brake OR throttle input. What happens if you corner on a bike with no input? Remember, your steering controls the front tires, throttle controls the rear tires, and brakes control weight transfer.

Mike, mind if I pick your brain on this? You have me very intrigued.

On a bike iirc when you coast you loose stability though a turn. I assume you would translate this into body roll and excessive weight transfer with a car on the track?

-K

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by solidONE

Okay, maybe I need to explain why I think it's BS. Specially for me. We spend all that time and effort prepping our cars, reading books, articles, watching video, visualizing in our heads all for the desire to go, you guessed it...., fast. Finally one day we make it happen. Our chance to go fast in our car comes. That day we wake our asses up 4-5am in the morning, or sometimes even lose sleep the day prior, drive our asses down to the dessert, anticipating our time on a race track. We wanna go fast, period. As fast as we can. That is the whole point of even going through all that to get our asses there. To know whether or not we are going fast, or at very least faster than last time, we're going to have to check our lap times. So... how can any of us not worry about lap times? Impossible. Even when people say "Lap times doesnt matter." Maybe "worry" is not the right word, but it matters. Matters a whole lot. It matter enough that you put all that time, money and effort to get to the track.

I'm not sure how long ago you were a newb, or whether if you did all the right things to be relatively fast from the get go, always improving, but... Point is, it matters a lot regardless your skill level if you have any sort of passion for this stuff.

Nobody is telling you that lap times don't matter. We are telling you that YOU AREN'T READY to start timing yourself. Trust me, I am ALL about improving my lap times. People are trying to help you by pointing out what you need to concentrate on first. It's bad enough that you're trying to 'win' a DE. It's even worse that you don't even know how to drive while doing it. Once you figure out the basics, then timing starts to make sense. Until then, you are screwing yourself.

Originally Posted by orthojoe

While I would agree that lap times the best gauge of measuring your progress, 'worrying' about your time and chasing after a time at the stage you are at will only make you slower because it causes you to drive more aggressively through a corner while ignoring that you are missing the line and not placing smooth inputs.

Originally Posted by orthojoe

There you have it. A non d-bag telling you the same thing. Still think it's bull? If so, nobody can help you.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

Nobody is telling you that lap times don't matter. We are telling you that YOU AREN'T READY to start timing yourself. Trust me, I am ALL about improving my lap times. People are trying to help you by pointing out what you need to concentrate on first. It's bad enough that you're trying to 'win' a DE. It's even worse that you don't even know how to drive while doing it. Once you figure out the basics, then timing starts to make sense. Until then, you are screwing yourself.

I can deal with that.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Kiske

Mike, mind if I pick your brain on this? You have me very intrigued.

On a bike iirc when you coast you loose stability though a turn. I assume you would translate this into body roll and excessive weight transfer with a car on the track?

-K

I wouldn't think it would affect body roll in the corner much, but I can envision how it would affect weight transfer (specifically, how it could unload the rear end a bit). From my limited experience, I would think it would cause the back end to lack stability, and break loose more easily, but I'll be the first to admit I don't have a lot of experience here (and I am looking forward to hearing Mike's answer to this question).