Got a track related question? I'll try to answer.

[juliog]

From [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Speed-Secrets-Complete-High-Performance/dp/0760340501/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1397954610&sr=8-2&keywords=speed+secrets"]Ultimate Speed Secrets[/ame]

[AZP Installs]

Originally Posted by Wyattkb

@AZP Installs

HPDE 3 and 4 gets crazy with those high HP cars and passing.

That's a great attitude. I can actually go out in race practice with my street car or run an open track day with IMSA teams there and we all get along just fine because everyone knows how the other folks will react regardless of what car or how fast it is.

-Mike Paisan


Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Enthusiasts since 2001.
Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) |AIM: AZP Installs
"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by smbstyle

(not CSG Mike but here's my input)

Next, work on compressing braking zones - if you are threshold braking in the braking zone and have to back off the brake pressure to avoid slowing down too much, you are braking too early. Move your braking point later until you are on the brake hard until turn in.

(as you become more advanced, you can brake even LATER than that and trail brake into the corner, which will also help with rotation, but don't worry about that right now)

Reduce coasting time - Get off the gas and onto the brakes quickly - dont lift off the throttle, wait a second or two, and then get to the brake. If you have time to coast, you could have spent that time on throttle. If you have data or even just a Harry's lap timer and export onto a speed vs. time graph, you will see "plateaus" at the peaks, right before the braking zone. It should be a sharp acceleration than a sharp deceleration on the chart.

.

Originally Posted by AZP Installs

Also what I do is focus on a particular set of turns in a given session, where I just "throw away" the other areas of the track and really focus on that one spot.

-Mike Paisan


Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Enthusiasts since 2001.
Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) |AIM: AZP Installs
"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

That's the area that I'm having the most trouble with, which is strange because that is the part I have the least trouble with on a motorcycle. I think it stems from not knowing what the tires are able to hold and also trying to be as smooth as I possibly can, so I tend to take it on the safe side and coast a bit. Although I do still trailbrake in on turns following faster sections or straights. Too much trailbrake, scrubbing more speed than required. Next is corner speeds. Again, stemming from not knowing what the tires are capable of holding (no confidence in the grip).

I have a hard time feeling the tire grip (the sensation between grip and slip), particularly with so much body roll on stock suspension. I believe even when I think it is about to let go, it actually still has more grip available. Another thing is I lack the skill and reaction to catch a slide when it does initiate. Because of that, 'I'd rather not go there.' Maybe I should learn to be more proficient at drifting to be more familiar with the sensation of tire slip and catching slides.

But next trackday I will take Mikes advice and concentrate on one section of the track. I already have an idea where. Thanks guys!

[Wyattkb]

@solidONE you should be tracking with all the nannies on or in VSC sport. Don't worry so much about the grip, the car will catch itself if you push too far. After learning with the nannies on you can switch it off and you will know the threshold before the rear end slips out. Then you can practice counter steering, but if your losing grip that much to the point your drifting then your on the throttle too much through the turn or your trail braking is off setting the balance.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by solidONE

I'm curious what kind of advice veteran track day and racers would give a relative newb on skill development and when to start pushing limits with braking and throttle and steering.

...when should a newb begin to 'pooosh poooosh' without hurting skill development.

Also I think the 'don't worry about lap times' advice is bull. There is no way for me not to worry about lap times. Just not possible.

I'd start by asking how you rate your car control skills. Have you done any work that has elevated those skills, even if just for fun - say, autocrossing, off-road on two or four wheels, motorcycle racing on pavement, drifting, winter car control school, karting, rally school - really, anything at all that has a motor vehicle moving around underneath you while you keep it going where you want it to? The beauty of most of those activities is that the penalty for getting it badly wrong is a lot less than it is on a race track (depending upon what's in your way when you go four-off).

Paying much attention at this point to lap times (i.e., 'worry[ing] about them) isn't likely to help you progress. Lap times will fall as you develop; the immediate goal is to find out how to develop your skills in a timely fashion, which you're already working on by asking questions here.

Originally Posted by juliog

From Ultimate Speed Secrets

This is a book held in very high regard by many drivers. Ross Bentley is an outstanding communicator, and he does a wonderful job explaining how to get a car around a track as quickly as possible.

Bentley's book may, however, be more than you're ready for at this time. In addition to it, I'd recommend picking up [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Going-Faster-Mastering-Race-Driving/dp/0837602262"]Going Faster! Mastering the Art of Race Driving: Carl Lopez, Danny Sullivan: 9780837602264: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]


Going Faster! is an excellent introduction to the basics (and more) of driving a car on a race track. It's quite comprehensive in its treatment of the issues you've raised, and you could do worse than start with it.

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by Wyattkb

@solidONE you should be tracking with all the nannies on or in VSC sport. Don't worry so much about the grip, the car will catch itself if you push too far. After learning with the nannies on you can switch it off and you will know the threshold before the rear end slips out. Then you can practice counter steering, but if your losing grip that much to the point your drifting then your on the throttle too much through the turn or your trail braking is off setting the balance.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

In my first 2 track days (Buttonwill CW13 and SoW CW) I've left the VSC on in the beginning sessions and I found that it is much too sensitive. I was able to get much faster laps in with VSC off than on.

Originally Posted by dradernh

I'd start by asking how you rate your car control skills. Have you done any work that has elevated those skills, even if just for fun - say, autocrossing, off-road on two or four wheels, motorcycle racing on pavement, drifting, winter car control school, karting, rally school - really, anything at all that has a motor vehicle moving around underneath you while you keep it going where you want it to? The beauty of most of those activities is that the penalty for getting it badly wrong is a lot less than it is on a race track (depending upon what's in your way when you go four-off).

Paying much attention at this point to lap times (i.e., 'worry[ing] about them) isn't likely to help you progress. Lap times will fall as you develop; the immediate goal is to find out how to develop your skills in a timely fashion, which you're already working on by asking questions here.

This is a book held in very high regard by many drivers. Ross Bentley is an outstanding communicator, and he does a wonderful job explaining how to get a car around a track as quickly as possible.

Bentley's book may, however, be more than you're ready for at this time. In addition to it, I'd recommend picking up Going Faster! Mastering the Art of Race Driving: Carl Lopez, Danny Sullivan: 9780837602264: Amazon.com: Books


Going Faster! is an excellent introduction to the basics (and more) of driving a car on a race track. It's quite comprehensive in its treatment of the issues you've raised, and you could do worse than start with it.

I know what I need to work on just not quite sure how to go about working on these things outside of a racetrack. By the end of a 20 minute session at the track I'm just barely getting warmed up, then I have to come in. I need to learn how to maximize my time on the track. What I've been doing so far is trying to program myself to be habitually smooth, so smooth inputs becomes second nature. I've also incorporated this in my daily driving habits. Heel-toe, rev matching, both hands on the wheel, minimal shuffling of hands when turning the wheel, albeit at much lower speeds and engine revolutions. All this to try to make all these into habit. Programming myself.... but all this 'smooth' I've forgotten to 'push.'

I've had experience on paved track via a few track days on 2 wheels and now 4 wheels, including an endurance race on 2 wheels going mid-pack pace. Nothing off road, though I used to ride BMX as a kid (which helped with my riding more than anything.) My last track day was the first time I hadn't improved upon my lap times during the later sessions. Matter fact, I was a lot slower in the later sessions. A lot as in around 5 seconds slower... very depressing thing, as you can imagine. As of the last track day, I'd rate myself way below average.... and even worse rating as to where I feel I should be. why did you have to ask me that?

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by solidONE

Also I think the 'don't worry about lap times' advice is bull. There is no way for me not to worry about lap times. Just not possible.

While I would agree that lap times the best gauge of measuring your progress, 'worrying' about your time and chasing after a time at the stage you are at will only make you slower because it causes you to drive more aggressively through a corner while ignoring that you are missing the line and not placing smooth inputs.

Originally Posted by solidONE

In my first 2 track days (Buttonwill CW13 and SoW CW) I've left the VSC on in the beginning sessions and I found that it is much too sensitive. I was able to get much faster laps in with VSC off than on.

If you are finding VSC much too sensitive and slowing you down significantly, it's because you aren't driving smoothly. You'll find VSC to be less sensitive once you drive smoother (and subsequently faster). Yes, VSC will slow the good drivers down, but only slightly. VSC on/off is up to you, but your statement leads me to believe you aren't driving smoothly.

My last track day was the first time I hadn't improved upon my lap times during the later sessions. Matter fact, I was a lot slower in the later sessions. A lot as in around 5 seconds slower... very depressing thing, as you can imagine. As of the last track day, I'd rate myself way below average.... and even worse rating as to where I feel I should be. why did you have to ask me that?

It's because you were worrying about lap times. Call it BS if you want, but it's the truth.

One other piece of advice I will throw out in addition to what others have given: Get a lap timer with datalogging capabilities. Go back and review the data and compare with other drivers to see what you are doing differently.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

One other piece of advice I will throw out in addition to what others have given: Get a lap timer with datalogging capabilities. Go back and review the data and compare with other drivers to see what you are doing differently.

Looks like this (click for full size to see the detail - red is the faster lap), although I wonder if this is going to help him all that much at this point; he sounds like he needs much more work on fundamentals before getting distracted with this level of minutae:

[ayau]

@solidONE, have you tried practicing with karts? Cheaper than track days and the skills are transferable.

[orthojoe]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Looks like this (click for full size to see the detail - red is the faster lap), although I wonder if this is going to help him all that much at this point; he sounds like he needs much more work on fundamentals before getting distracted with this level of minutae:

I think data is still useful even for novices, especially their brake and throttle input. They also always seem to think that they are 'at the limit' and can't go any faster through a corner, but don't realize that their bad line and abrupt inputs are slowing them down. Data overlay can clearly demonstrate this.

Video review is really good too

[dradernh]

I don't necessarily disagree, and would say that I'm happy when my novices drive the line I ask of them. Consistently. Until then, I don't worry about braking and accelerating unless the former is a mess or the latter is unsafe. Those inputs do receive the required attention, but they're not at all my focus with novices. I saw a great quote by Terry Earwood a few years ago; it went like this IIRC:

"If you're already not going where you want [need] to go, why would you want to go there faster."

This part of Mike's thread points to what I think is one fact of life for trackday enthusiasts: different instructors are asking for and offering different things, and hopefully there's enough overlap that the students are growing their capabilities at a rate they find acceptable.

Originally Posted by orthojoe

Video review is really good too

+1

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by orthojoe

I think data is still useful even for novices, especially their brake and throttle input. They also always seem to think that they are 'at the limit' and can't go any faster through a corner, but don't realize that their bad line and abrupt inputs are slowing them down. Data overlay can clearly demonstrate this.

Video review is really good too

Well here is a lap I did recorded on Harry's with the phone mounted behind the rear view mirror. I found this to be an ideal position if it doesn't get too hot to overheat your phone.

This was 4pm in the afternoon, and I'm worrying about why I haven't gone any faster. Please try not to fall asleep. http://s174.photobucket.com/user/sol..._5286.mp4.html

All I see is that I'm not going fast enough not carrying enough speed and wondering if I should downshift at the double apexes. Does this not look smooth? I think I clipped most of the apexes as well. Also, not sure if I'm not giving enough pressure to get a point by. Please critique!

[solidONE]

Here's a run I did on a local back road with stock tires with VSC on.

http://s174.photobucket.com/user/sol...43611.mp4.html

As you can see it was very intrusive. I'm sure the stock tires has a lot to say about how the TC is kicking in.

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by solidONE

Here's a run I did on a local back road with stock tires with VSC on.

http://s174.photobucket.com/user/sol...43611.mp4.html

As you can see it was very intrusive. I'm sure the stock tires has a lot to say about how the TC is kicking in.

The road looks fairly bumpy and uneven to me, which could cause the TC to kick in a fair amount.