Let's discuss SCCA Stock Class

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by mla163

It is
These are the rules. Pick a car.

It is NOT
Pick a car. Adjust rules your benefit.

actually,

its a democratic process and you lobby your interests through SCCA representatives to bring it up to discussion.

thats why you're required to wear seatbelts and helmuts now.

[whataboutbob]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

actually,

its a democratic process and you lobby your interests through SCCA representatives to bring it up to discussion.

thats why you're required to wear seatbelts and helmuts now.

Agreed. But you can't make a part change for any given class unless the rules explicitly allow it, I think. There's an order of operations that applies here. Change the rules, then change the parts.

[MTCRX]

Originally Posted by dwx

The stock class rules are ancient compared to the other classes, they haven't really seen many revisions at all. The shock rules are from a time when shocks on most cars were terrible, and the tire rules are from a time when none of the classes ran on "street" tires.

Oil coolers and radiators aren't exactly performance items, they are for reliability and generally just add weight. There is an allowance for using catch cans in stock, that arguably has more of a performance benefit than either of those items. Unless you have a really crappy car, neither of those items will ever come into play on an autocross course.

Stock is at a point now where people are starting to question the rules. I'm fine with limiting the real performance enhancing items in stock like shocks, race tires, etc. I have Hoosiers but I don't see a point to them anymore, street tires are really really good at this point.

If stock is stock than why is there a need to change the rules? As cars improve stock cars improve. I would argue that shocks can be a HUGE improvement over stock, much more than a catch can. Who is to say someone would change a stock radiator to a half radiator and save measurable front end weight. If a stock class requires stock parts, it is usually very easy to see what parts of a car have been changed from stock and everyone is on a more even playing field. Why does everyone want to "mod" a car but not move in class. That is the way the rules are laid out. And I still think that a new person to the sport will feel more welcomed if they see the stock cars really are close to stock. I don't buy the reliability issue, what stock car is going to overheat in autocross with a well functioning cooling system? If it does then that is a poor choice of car for autocross in stock form. If you change from stock you go to a prepared or better class because that is meant to handle even the smallest changes, so there is no question that the cars in stock are as basic and original as they can be.

[xwd]

People want to change the rules because right now and since the current rules were put in place people spend absurd amounts of money on "stock" cars. Even cars good out of box like the 86 or Miata people spend thousands on stock class prep. I think we are on the same page with that one.

The radiator and engine cooler is a bone for those running HPDE which is wildly poplar these days. Cars like the 86, WRX/STI, 350/370Z really benefit from an oil cooler for HPDE especially in warmer climates. Has nothing to do with autocross really other than it punting those people into a class like street modified. It's easy to write a rule saying the component has to weigh as much as stock or have the same volume as stock, it's done for a ton of other rules in solo.

[7thgear]

^^
bang on!

[race2win]

Originally Posted by MTCRX

If stock is stock than why is there a need to change the rules? As cars improve stock cars improve. I would argue that shocks can be a HUGE improvement over stock, much more than a catch can. Who is to say someone would change a stock radiator to a half radiator and save measurable front end weight. If a stock class requires stock parts, it is usually very easy to see what parts of a car have been changed from stock and everyone is on a more even playing field. Why does everyone want to "mod" a car but not move in class. That is the way the rules are laid out. And I still think that a new person to the sport will feel more welcomed if they see the stock cars really are close to stock. I don't buy the reliability issue, what stock car is going to overheat in autocross with a well functioning cooling system? If it does then that is a poor choice of car for autocross in stock form. If you change from stock you go to a prepared or better class because that is meant to handle even the smallest changes, so there is no question that the cars in stock are as basic and original as they can be.

You cannot legislate spending in any form of competition, those with the will & the way will find advantages any way they can. Now, don't get me wrong...I'm not saying the stock category is great as-is & needs no revisions, I agree in the present form items such as tires has gone beyond the reach of the avg casual competitor. However, 100% stock isn't a realistic option & will never happen.

Shocks for example are almost impossible to legislate...look up the cost for a brand new strut for ANY car through your local dealer & compare that cost to a new Koni. Not only is the Koni MUCH cheaper than OEM, it's a performance benefit. Sure, the chances of needing a new shock on any car built in the past few years is slim, but I don't think anyone would argue that a new shock is going to work better than one with 50K+ miles on it...so what happens when the fast guys with unlimited budgets are putting new OEM shocks in their car every year? What if in some cars the difference between new shocks & 20K mile shocks is a half second?

What I do think can be done is to revise the shock rule to at least minimize the theoretical advantage between the fastest shocks & OEM. IMO, the difference between an off-the-shelf Koni/Bilstien/Tokico & the best Moton/Penske/AST/Ohlins/Pimpy-aluminum-bodied-double-adjustable-custom-valved-remote-reservoir-$8K set of shocks is very little...guys like Sam have proven time and again simple set-ups can win. So my idea is to eliminate remote reservoirs & limit adjustments to only one...unless the car came OEM with those options, in which they would need to run OEM shocks in order to keep those functions. Sure, some will spend the money to custom valve their Konis, or even carry multiple sets for different conditions...but the performance delta between best & worst would be much less than it is now.

Anyway, point is, gong to 100% OEM shocks could actually make stock more expensive, yet definitely less fun. The rest of the stock-legal mods are actually quite in-expensive, don't make the car un-drivable, & can easily be sold off for most of your investment. Tires on the other hand, that is a completely different story....

[mo8ius]

Worth a read:

http://www.solomatters.com/2013/03/s...sal-explained/

[xwd]

I installed new shocks (MCS) a couple months ago and afterwards had the car aligned at a shop I trusted to do mechanical work, but this was the first time I had them do an alignment. I gave them specific alignment settings, but I didn't watch them do the work since I had to go to an appointment.

I did a quick check of the alignment the other night just to double check things before this weekend, using strings, but not to high precision. It seemed like the toe was off front and rear. So I went to a local tire shop known to do good alignments to your spec yesterday morning and verified it was indeed way off. Like 1/8" out front left and 1/8" in on the front right, but the overall front was around 0. Rear was a little over 1/8" out on the left and 0 on the right...

I only did one event with the alignment that way. I was on A6s and it was 45 degrees and wet so I don't think any alignment would have made much difference, but I'm glad I got it checked before this weekend. I wish I had more room at my place to do the string method with more precision or else I'd just do it myself. Guess the moral of the story is always double check someone else's work.

Camber was the same as it always has been, about -1.2 on both sides in the front with the bolts, -1.1 both sides in the rear.

[ABQautoxer]

Oh that alignment would make quite a difference. Just going from zero rear toe to 1/8" total in on my bone stock BRZ at the time made a very big difference in composure and throttle-on oversteer.

[jdrxb9]

Well, this wasn't a 'national' level event, just a big 'local', but I figured some folks might find it interesting.

We decided to take the BRZ on a bit of a road trip from western-ish PA to FedEx field to preview the site prior to the DC ProSolo and just to get some quality seat time in before the NJ Pro, which will be only our third weekend out this year. After watching SS run 2nd heat, I knew a decent time would be ~70 and fantastic (for me) would be ~68. I ended up running a 69.9xx, which was good enough for official P1 in RTR and 25/~190 on pax. Pretty boring story so far, right?

Well, here's the good part: Sam Strano jumps in the car for a couple non-comp runs during 4th heat. Taking only 2 runs and not changing a thing on the car, he puts down a 67.856 and then a 67.708! His top time in the BRZ would have paxed the entire field including his own times in his own Grand Sport!!

Here's how not to do it:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiN3zL4SOFo"]WDCR_4-13-13_J_r4 - YouTube[/ame]


Here's how to do it right:
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muzykY7DXIo"]WDCR_4-13-13_S_r1 - YouTube[/ame]


full results here: WDCR_Event#1

PS: The basic setup on the car is the Strano front bar, off the shelf Koni's (also from Sam), and last fall's 235 Z1's.

PPS: I did a little better on Sunday

[Sam Strano]

Thanks to John for the runs in the car. Thanks x2 for believing in me to set it up.

DC is not a flat lot. This wasn't a short course, and had a few good uphill pulls (like the start). For comparison, here is my fast run in the Grand Sport (Jason Burns won the day with 2 different 64.2's. This is a coned 64.1... I stood on 64.4 on this day). Here's the run for direct comparison, and there is speed data on it.

Other numbers you ought to know:

Eric Kreimelmeyer in a Z0K Solstice indexed 3rd behind me. I set that car up, it was on Hoosiers. He is a very good driver. Coned a 66.0. Stood on a 66.4. Remember, I ran a 67.7 in John's car on Z1's on the same course, same day. I don't think this is an noncompetitive car in CS.

Now onto today. I didn't drive a BRZ or an FR-S today, but I did drive another CS car. Course was faster (I can post video of it if you want to see from the Corvette). I paxed 1 today. Learic Cramer had me make some runs to help her make some changes to here 370Z. I ran 65.6 in her car, 62.4 in mine (she is in Hoosier's). For comparison, Eric K in the Solstice ran a 65.521. John, for comparison again, did have a MUCH better day today (I think I finally got him to believe that the tail needs to be a little alive....) ran a 67.816. That's only about 2 seconds off of two top flight cars on A6's, and that was on z1's.

You can take this stuff for what it's worth. And I'm sure there will be nay-sayers... but it's hard to argue with the video and the results.

I'm 100% thrilled with the sway bar I've built, and that's on both CS/RTR and STX cars (different tires too). I think Jadrice was pretty happy with the bar with race tires too. I have more being made now. Why pay more for heavier bars when you can see how well the cars work on mine?

[trippinbillies40]

Well Pallotta finished 3rd in pax and I finished 4th today at OVR PE1. I got 1st in RTR over a well set up, well-driven MX5 by over a half second. That's not comparing to competing against a national champ driver in an MSR or Z0K, but I'm not a national champ driver either.

Very interested to see how this works out. PS, Sam, I might bug you for advice for Holly's car this week if you're ok with that

My run today:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUdVV6JMpGg"]2013 OVR PE1 - YouTube[/ame]

[Sam Strano]

This weekend rocked for a whole lot of my customers/setups in all kinds of cars at a number of events.

FWIW, Holly's car and John's car are pretty much setup the same, but for tires (and both could have a little more done).

I'll be around Dave.

[Biggins]

It was nice meeting you John. I was in the orange FR-S, and you spanked us all pretty good. I guess the next thing for me to do is call Sam for a set of Konis even though I've blown my (very limited) parts budget for the year. I've got no other excuses except that it's time I work a bit more on my driving.