E85

[86drift]

Since I'm not the only one thinking of converting my car to run E85 I thought I'd run my ideas past you.

I'm thinking of using only the port injectors and having a fully standalone ECU running in parallel to take care of fuel and ignition (and eventually cam timing). I don't think detonation will be an issue due to the octane rating (what do you think?), and if it is I can take some timing out.

Only ECU experience I have is with Megasquirt. I think this time around I'll give one of the after market ECUs a try.

[GC GTS Aero Kit]

Ive got a fair idea the engine operation and combustion will be based around Direct injection primarily so to disuse it all together would be FAIL

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by 86drift

Since I'm not the only one thinking of converting my car to run E85 I thought I'd run my ideas past you.

I'm thinking of using only the port injectors and having a fully standalone ECU running in parallel to take care of fuel and ignition (and eventually cam timing). I don't think detonation will be an issue due to the octane rating (what do you think?), and if it is I can take some timing out.

Only ECU experience I have is with Megasquirt. I think this time around I'll give one of the after market ECUs a try.

Two points, take them as you like, these mostly are my opinion only:

1) E85 is gasoline spiked with Ethanol. The ethanol does decrease detonation chance, but it also produces less power than regular gasoline, so you would be down about 10-15% on power. As a result, you will be seeing MPG decreases of about the same amount.

1.5) Ethanol also eats away at your normal fuel system components, lines, injectors, etc. You would have to invest in a new fuel system to handle the E85 long term.

2) The price difference between E85 and normal gasoline is negligible. Cost to produce and transport is about the same as normal gasoline. I could see since premium is being used by the 86 that there might be some more savings, but not enough to justify converting your car to be able to run E85.

Just seems like more trouble than its worth. Plus, bye-bye warranty.

[czar07]

the only reason you would want to run e85 is in high HP boosted applications

[Ballsak2nv]

With 12.5/1 cr and a properly tuned ecu to take the difference in octane i can see a big bump up in hp.

Is it worth it, personally no.

As mentioned E85 is not as dense as normal 98 so you will need more E85 then 98, so that throws the low fuel usage out the window.

Regarding ethanol eating fuel lines, well it does but im not sure if the fuel setup in the 86 will take it.

1 can assume it could handle it as most countries do use some sort of ethanol blend these days but i wouldn't trust it unless the manual says you can use ethanol blend.

Even then that would be referring to E10, E85 would be much more nasty, so i would be changing all associated rubbers just in case, throwing the cost v's performance out the window almost.

[GC GTS Aero Kit]

Originally Posted by HunterGreene

Two points, take them as you like, these mostly are my opinion only:

1) E85 is gasoline spiked with Ethanol. The ethanol does decrease detonation chance, but it also produces less power than regular gasoline, so you would be down about 10-15% on power. As a result, you will be seeing MPG decreases of about the same amount.

1.5) Ethanol also eats away at your normal fuel system components, lines, injectors, etc. You would have to invest in a new fuel system to handle the E85 long term.

2) The price difference between E85 and normal gasoline is negligible. Cost to produce and transport is about the same as normal gasoline. I could see since premium is being used by the 86 that there might be some more savings, but not enough to justify converting your car to be able to run E85.

Just seems like more trouble than its worth. Plus, bye-bye warranty.

Most of your comments about E85 are incorrect ! I have my current daily tuned on E85 and its the best mod ive done.

The biggest problem with E85 is the requirement for additional fuel. To get the correct AFRs wit this fuel approximately 35% more fuel is required to get it running so bigger injectors, fuels pumps etc are required.

On my EVO 9 I have 1450cc injectors and twin Walbro 255lp/h pumps for my daily so it is a gas pig but the performance increase was pheonominal from 273kw @ the wheels to 313kw @ wheels on same boost level.

My car has been running E85 for over a year and no fuel issues so Im not convinced you have any evidence of this fuel corrosion.

As to the cost difference at the pump premium is circa $1.50 - 1.60 per litre and E85 at Caltex servos is $1.20 - $1.30 per litre. As you use 35% roughly more fuel its about the same as running 98 ron do to fuel consumption.

You are correct in saying your warranty will be voided Toyota only warrants upto 10% Ethanol currently.

[86drift]

Originally Posted by GC GTS Aero Kit

Ive got a fair idea the engine operation and combustion will be based around Direct injection primarily so to disuse it all together would be FAIL

Do you know if there are aftermarket direct injectors available? Or, would you max out the standard injectors and have the port injectors take up the slack.

The main problem I see it finding an ECU that handles DI and port injection at the same time.

[70NYD]

Issues with ethanol eating fuel lines was back in the days of carburetors. Most if not all modern cars can handle it without issues what so ever..
Pure ethanol has a lower energy content that pure gasoline, but the air/fuel mixture can be compressed SO much more due to a much higher aki, so while you will use more, it will net greater power ( as per what gcgtsaero said)

Which servos have 85 here? I only knew of 2 in the brisbane area and they are too far for me to drive to to warrant a conversion

[86drift]

Originally Posted by 70NYD

Issues with ethanol eating fuel lines was back in the days of carburetors. Most if not all modern cars can handle it without issues what so ever..
Pure ethanol has a lower energy content that pure gasoline, but the air/fuel mixture can be compressed SO much more due to a much higher aki, so while you will use more, it will net greater power ( as per what gcgtsaero said)

Which servos have 85 here? I only knew of 2 in the brisbane area and they are too far for me to drive to to warrant a conversion

Select E-Flex and put your post code on here to find your nearest outlet.

[70NYD]

Sweet
Cheers
I would keep direct injection, as methanol vapourising will cool the charge further Allowing you to advance timing even more

[coyote]

Originally Posted by 70NYD

Which servos have 85 here? I only knew of 2 in the brisbane area and they are too far for me to drive to to warrant a conversion

There are none on the northside, but quite a few on the southside (including down the Gold Coast). The biggest problem appears to be that Woolworths won't sell it in any of their sites.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by HunterGreene

Two points, take them as you like, these mostly are my opinion only:

1) E85 is gasoline spiked with Ethanol. The ethanol does decrease detonation chance, but it also produces less power than regular gasoline, so you would be down about 10-15% on power. As a result, you will be seeing MPG decreases of about the same amount.

Wait, so this is complete nonsense. It does not have less power than regular gasoline. For the same fuel/oxygen equivalence, the heating value per unit oxygen is the same, but the charge cooling is greater so you have more power. That's why people do E85 conversions on NA motors. Now your mpg does go down because ethanol has less energy per unit volume.

Not using the direct injectors with E85 would be stupid, because you throw away most of the charge cooling benefit and a lot of the volumetric efficiency benefit.

Sorry, not from Australia but just chiming in

[70NYD]

what he meant there (i think) is that what you reffered to - ethanol has less power per unit volume then gasoline (and i meant ethanol in my previous post not methanol, sorry)

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Wait, so this is complete nonsense. It does not have less power than regular gasoline. For the same fuel/oxygen equivalence, the heating value per unit oxygen is the same, but the charge cooling is greater so you have more power. That's why people do E85 conversions on NA motors. Now your mpg does go down because ethanol has less energy per unit volume.

Not using the direct injectors with E85 would be stupid, because you throw away most of the charge cooling benefit and a lot of the volumetric efficiency benefit.

Sorry, not from Australia but just chiming in

You're correct, I just re-checked my facts. Should have done that the first time. You'd be less fuel-efficient, but have a bit more power. Still not worth the tradeoff, IMHO.