Oddities: new alignment, tires and wheels

[rainmonkey]

Hello,

So on friday, I finally had an alignment done, as well as new wheels and tires mounted.

I went from:
stock wheels
stock rubber
haphazard non-aligned coilovers that seemed ok on the highways (didn't pull or anything)
slightly mismatched ride height, ~14 in the front, 13 3/8 in the back

Now the car sits with:
17x9 57dr +35
Mich Pilot Sport A/S 3 245/40/17
Alignment:
-1.49/-1.52 front left/front right
-1.63/-2.0 rear left/rear right (I couldn't adjust this since I don't have any other parts for the rear suspension aside from coils)
front total toe 0.08
rear total toe 0.18
from center of the hub to top of the fender, front is roughly 13.5, rear is still 13 3/8 but measuring from the chassis, the front sits roughly 1/8 lower than the rear (I was told this was pretty good for the car handling wise)

I used to feel like I was sliding/drifting (not in the motorsport sense of the word) through the turns when I would go as fast as I could, and it felt comfortable - not out of control or on the verge of spinning out, nice feeling. But when I'd go through sharper turns, I would understeer, the car would vibrate as the front tires skipped along on the asphalt (not fun). This was all done on my old mismatched setup.

Fast forward to yesterday when i went to AutoX, one thing I definitely noticed was that the understeer was pretty much gone unless I went way too fast. On the other hand, going through the same turns that I used to kind of "float" through, I felt like I was on the verge on losing control (I did actually spin out 2 or so times). I know this probably doesnt make sense, but to me, it feels as if my high speed maneuvers have become more prone to slipping compared to my old setup. Whereas my more moderate speed maneuvers are more stable and planted.

I know I'm using an all season tire but according to the reviews it's a pretty good one!

One of the guys at the course said that sometimes new tires have a break-in period because the oils used in the compounds are still being sucked out a bit (I guess you could describe it as feeling a bit greasy...?) But another guy said that I should be good after one lap after the outside layer has been scrubbed off. Tires have about 400miles on em so far.

Did I screw something up on the alignment? Thanks for any and all input!

[brz7400]

i have not aligned mine, but seems like people like to run slight toe in in the rear, slight toe out in the front.
if your rear toe is OUT instead of in, maybe that is causing spooky behaviors?

[rainmonkey]

No, i think positive toe is toe in... at least that's what websites say, and also what i told the guy working the car to do.

[rainmonkey]

bump? pretty please...?

[des]

Do you still run the stock front bar? If so, you probably need more bar up front. There are a ton of good options.

Otherwise it might be a rake issue.

[Tye300]

Did you check your tire pressure? Alignment seems okay, but having too much psi in the rear tires can also cause you to lose traction and can make it slide easier.

[celica73]

What were the "before" alignment numbers. Seems you have loosened things up in general. Are the shocks adjustable?

[rainmonkey]

@Tye300 tire pressure was roughly 35psi all around. do people run diff temps front/back?
@celica73 I didn't really have "before" alignment numbers - honestly I didnt think they were worth taking since coils were installed in my friend's backyard with no alignment equipment at all. The only thing he adjusted was ride height and that was before the springs settled too. The only thing I can think of would be that the rear camber has remained consistent since I don't have a way to adjust those numbers. Probably had a bit of reverse rake?

When you say 'are the shocks adjustable' do you mean can I adjust how soft/hard I want the coils to be? yes - they're on the softer side right now.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by rainmonkey

Hello,

So on friday, I finally had an alignment done, as well as new wheels and tires mounted.

I went from:
stock wheels
stock rubber
haphazard non-aligned coilovers that seemed ok on the highways (didn't pull or anything)
slightly mismatched ride height, ~14 in the front, 13 3/8 in the back

Now the car sits with:
17x9 57dr +35
Mich Pilot Sport A/S 3 245/40/17
Alignment:
-1.49/-1.52 front left/front right
-1.63/-2.0 rear left/rear right (I couldn't adjust this since I don't have any other parts for the rear suspension aside from coils)
front total toe 0.08
rear total toe 0.18
from center of the hub to top of the fender, front is roughly 13.5, rear is still 13 3/8 but measuring from the chassis, the front sits roughly 1/8 lower than the rear (I was told this was pretty good for the car handling wise)

I used to feel like I was sliding/drifting (not in the motorsport sense of the word) through the turns when I would go as fast as I could, and it felt comfortable - not out of control or on the verge of spinning out, nice feeling. But when I'd go through sharper turns, I would understeer, the car would vibrate as the front tires skipped along on the asphalt (not fun). This was all done on my old mismatched setup.

Fast forward to yesterday when i went to AutoX, one thing I definitely noticed was that the understeer was pretty much gone unless I went way too fast. On the other hand, going through the same turns that I used to kind of "float" through, I felt like I was on the verge on losing control (I did actually spin out 2 or so times). I know this probably doesnt make sense, but to me, it feels as if my high speed maneuvers have become more prone to slipping compared to my old setup. Whereas my more moderate speed maneuvers are more stable and planted.

I know I'm using an all season tire but according to the reviews it's a pretty good one!

One of the guys at the course said that sometimes new tires have a break-in period because the oils used in the compounds are still being sucked out a bit (I guess you could describe it as feeling a bit greasy...?) But another guy said that I should be good after one lap after the outside layer has been scrubbed off. Tires have about 400miles on em so far.

Did I screw something up on the alignment? Thanks for any and all input!

Think of it this way.

Your car gets "looser" as it goes faster. Lets make a scale of 1-100, with 1 being super understeery, and 100 being super oversteery. Now, on this scale, as you go faster, your car goes "up" the scale. For example, if your car is a 25 at low speed, it may be a 35 at high speed.

It sounds like before, you were at around a 40. The car would understeer slightly, but nothing terrible. As you get to higher speeds, the car would go up the scale, and become a 50, being neutral (loose, but manageable).

Now, you're at a 50. The understeer is gone at low speed, but at higher speeds, it goes up to a 60, and becomes loose, and actually swings the rear around.

You can fix where your car sits at static (the 40 that became a 50), or you can fix how the car changes based on speed (the 10 increase that happens, no matter where you start).

Just a different perspective that hopefully makes sense.



You need a better alignment guy. This is what I'd do if it were my car:

- Get the subframe centered by hand
- Install crash bolts in the front
- Play with tolerances to get more camber
- cornerbalance the dampers
- re-align

Steps 1, and 3 will not be available to you unless you have a VERY experienced alignment shop that does a lot (or exclusively) performance oriented setups
Step 2 can be done at home.
Step 4 will need a decent alignment shop or regular shop with the proper equipment
Step 5 will only be toe for you unless you buy more parts.

[celica73]

It seems you liked the "before" handling, so those numbers might have been useful. The alignment tech should be able to tell you what adjustments he made (more toe in/out in the rear, more or less camber in the front). Most alignment machines will give a print out with before and after settings.

Are you using camber plates in front, what coilovers are you running?

I'm asking about shock adjustments, coils are springs, we're not on the same terminology page.

If the shocks have a knob, adjust the rear knobs in the "-" or softer direction. Alternatively, adjust the fronts in the "+" or firmer direction (do the rear first).

Is the car loose on corner entry (turn in/braking) or corner exit (on throttle), or mid turn (steady state)?

[rainmonkey]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Think of it this way.

Your car gets "looser" as it goes faster. Lets make a scale of 1-100, with 1 being super understeery, and 100 being super oversteery. Now, on this scale, as you go faster, your car goes "up" the scale. For example, if your car is a 25 at low speed, it may be a 35 at high speed.

It sounds like before, you were at around a 40. The car would understeer slightly, but nothing terrible. As you get to higher speeds, the car would go up the scale, and become a 50, being neutral (loose, but manageable).

Now, you're at a 50. The understeer is gone at low speed, but at higher speeds, it goes up to a 60, and becomes loose, and actually swings the rear around.

You can fix where your car sits at static (the 40 that became a 50), or you can fix how the car changes based on speed (the 10 increase that happens, no matter where you start).

Just a different perspective that hopefully makes sense.



You need a better alignment guy. This is what I'd do if it were my car:

- Get the subframe centered by hand
- Install crash bolts in the front
- Play with tolerances to get more camber
- cornerbalance the dampers
- re-align

Steps 1, and 3 will not be available to you unless you have a VERY experienced alignment shop that does a lot (or exclusively) performance oriented setups
Step 2 can be done at home.
Step 4 will need a decent alignment shop or regular shop with the proper equipment
Step 5 will only be toe for you unless you buy more parts.

Mike, your different perspective definitely makes sense - actually it helps a lot when thinking about how a car goes from understeer to oversteer.

I realize one of my bigger mistakes now: when I had the alignment done, I was kind of half-ass about it - I wanted a 'proper' alignment, which in my mind was pretty much adjust camber, toe, ride height - pretty simplistic to be honest.

The shop I went to actually does a lot of track prep work for dedicated race cars - I guess I didn't want to go full race since I also drive this thing on the street (but thankfully I don't have to use it to go to work or anything, purely a for fun car that I don't want only limited to the track). That having been said, I called them up and asked if they could do more of a track alignment including corner balancing.

Regarding the things you mentioned:
1. get the subframe centered by hand - what should I be looking for or ask the shop to do here?

2. Why the crash bolts? Is this just for additional camber up front? I'm using FA500 coils and they have camber plates - pretty much how I ended up getting -1.5* (oddly, after dropping the front, I actually had positive camber O_o). What should I do about the rear? are LCA's the best bet?

3. I don't really know what this means? Do you just mean messing around with different alignment combinations (since each aspect changes when you change another)

4. I'm definitely getting a corner balance - I'm operating under the assumption that they should model my weight, I should remove the junk in the trunk etc...

5. I want to do this right and proper - what additional parts do I need/do you recommend? and do you carry em? In the past you gave me a pretty simple 'set and forget' alignment: -2* front and rear, 1/32 toe in front and rear.
Still valid?

Also, shot in the dark, but on that 1-100 scale, what do you think is good to aim for? I don't suppose it's possible to make that 10 into... like a 5 is it?

Mike, I know I'm asking a whole crapload of stuff, I really appreciate all your help.

@celica73 Yeah the problem with that is we adjusted the ride height before tossing the car up for an alignment. So the baseline is already gone...
I'm running Fortune Auto 500 with camberplates (they came with em).
With regards to when is it loose... I felt that it was most unsteady when I was doing high speed turns side to side - I don't think that if it was a single turn alone it would be all that slippery. Although I could be wrong... I should've paid much more attention

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by rainmonkey

Mike, your different perspective definitely makes sense - actually it helps a lot when thinking about how a car goes from understeer to oversteer.

I realize one of my bigger mistakes now: when I had the alignment done, I was kind of half-ass about it - I wanted a 'proper' alignment, which in my mind was pretty much adjust camber, toe, ride height - pretty simplistic to be honest.

The shop I went to actually does a lot of track prep work for dedicated race cars - I guess I didn't want to go full race since I also drive this thing on the street (but thankfully I don't have to use it to go to work or anything, purely a for fun car that I don't want only limited to the track). That having been said, I called them up and asked if they could do more of a track alignment including corner balancing.

Regarding the things you mentioned:
1. get the subframe centered by hand - what should I be looking for or ask the shop to do here?

2. Why the crash bolts? Is this just for additional camber up front? I'm using FA500 coils and they have camber plates - pretty much how I ended up getting -1.5* (oddly, after dropping the front, I actually had positive camber O_o). What should I do about the rear? are LCA's the best bet?

3. I don't really know what this means? Do you just mean messing around with different alignment combinations (since each aspect changes when you change another)

4. I'm definitely getting a corner balance - I'm operating under the assumption that they should model my weight, I should remove the junk in the trunk etc...

5. I want to do this right and proper - what additional parts do I need/do you recommend? and do you carry em? In the past you gave me a pretty simple 'set and forget' alignment: -2* front and rear, 1/32 toe in front and rear.
Still valid?

Also, shot in the dark, but on that 1-100 scale, what do you think is good to aim for? I don't suppose it's possible to make that 10 into... like a 5 is it?

Mike, I know I'm asking a whole crapload of stuff, I really appreciate all your help.

@celica73 Yeah the problem with that is we adjusted the ride height before tossing the car up for an alignment. So the baseline is already gone...
I'm running Fortune Auto 500 with camberplates (they came with em).
With regards to when is it loose... I felt that it was most unsteady when I was doing high speed turns side to side - I don't think that if it was a single turn alone it would be all that slippery. Although I could be wrong... I should've paid much more attention

1) Just tell them you want the subframe centered. Either they know how to do it or they don't. This is somewhat rare for a shop to be able to do.

2) If you don't need em to get your target camber, then no need. I didn't know you had camber plates. Are you slammed? If you lower too much, then you LOSE negative camber (go more positive), and will lose even more as you compress under load.

3) playing with the space in tightening everything. Same result as #1, but is REALLY rare.

4) Cornerbalance with how you normally drive the car hard. If its for track, then in track trim. If its for street, then in street trim.

5) We sure do, but you don't necessarily need them all.


A few questions.

What spring rates are you on? What are ALL the parts on your car? What is your intended use for the car, and what is your driving experience?

PM me for the parts you need. The 5... is theoretically possible.

[rainmonkey]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

1) Just tell them you want the subframe centered. Either they know how to do it or they don't. This is somewhat rare for a shop to be able to do.

2) If you don't need em to get your target camber, then no need. I didn't know you had camber plates. Are you slammed? If you lower too much, then you LOSE negative camber (go more positive), and will lose even more as you compress under load.

3) playing with the space in tightening everything. Same result as #1, but is REALLY rare.

4) Cornerbalance with how you normally drive the car hard. If its for track, then in track trim. If its for street, then in street trim.

5) We sure do, but you don't necessarily need them all.


A few questions.

What spring rates are you on? What are ALL the parts on your car? What is your intended use for the car, and what is your driving experience?

PM me for the parts you need. The 5... is theoretically possible.

1. I'll ask about it on Monday/in my email. Curious, does the subframe come... for lack of a better term, 'off center' from the factory?

2. Not too sure if I'm 'slammed' - I'm roughly 4.75 - 5 inches front pinch rail to the ground... does that count? I figure I'll pick up bolts since they're cheap - I don't want to go for the alignment only to find out we can't get as much camber as needed - bolts are cheap anyway. The guy I spoke to said that once we're corner balancing, the aesthetics and stuff kinda go out the window. I don't care much about how low or high I am for looks - I just want something that works well - aesthetics are more or less just icing on the cake for me.

Parts I have:
Perrin resonated catback
Perrin LW crank pulley
Perrin CAI
Perrin rear shifter bushing
Perrin ecu tune
Kartboy Short shifter
Fortune Auto 500 Coilovers

Camber plates

Swift Springs 7/7

radial bearings (I think that's what they're called - they let the spring turn too)

17x9 Gramlight 57dr +35
Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3
License plate kit from Grimmspeed (most important part!)

Intended use: This car is for fun, which includes weekends driving, leisure trips, getting around town/the city/the state. No daily commute driving needed. Occasional autocross, I didn't have much time this summer, but I've gone to maybe 4 or so events. I want to try to get into road racing but that's a whole different ball game, figured I'd focus on autocross first. Also been to 1 drifting class (in which case the slipping I'm currently experiencing would be great haha)

I know I can't have the best of both worlds, but I'm hoping I can get some sort of happy medium while improving upon stock.

Regarding corner balance, since it isn't a dedicated track car, and I've actually never thought to remove the spare tire, jack, tools, etc... when I went to autocross, maybe I should just leave them in? Or is that really dumb? Driving on the street, there's no way I'd be approaching the limits of the car, most I'll do is put it in sport mode... so I don't imagine corner balancing for the track but then having excess weight, an occasional passenger etc.. will make a big difference for non-track driving.

As for parts and getting to the '5'... I don't really know what I would need. If the '5' is difficulto to achieve without spending a bunch, I'll be satisfied with the 10. Since this isn't a dedicated track car, I think -2 camber is my limit. So far I'm thinking:
camber bolts for the front
LCA - if I just wanted to get the rear camber L/R even, would I need to go this far? or would something cheaper like the Whiteline rear camber kit suffice?

Driving experience: just what I've listed above, this is my first modded car, previously I've driven civics and an audi s6

If you'd like we can move to PM'ing. Thanks again Mike