Need brake pad advice

[sw20kosh]

My front XP10's are toast but my rear XP8's are fine. I don't want to change out the rears yet untill they have been used up more. Can anyone give a recommendation on what front pad to go with (XP10's squeal/squeak/whine so badly it literally is excruciating to drive around town with the windows down).

I'd like something that performs adequately at the track (intermediate level) but doesn't rupture my ear drums on the street.

Maybe some:
HC+800? Do these make the same amount of noise as the XP10's?
DS2500?

Thanks!
@CSG Mike

[m.wood0213]

I'm not an expert but maybe Project Mu HC 800 or if your pockets are deep enough go Endless. I'm sure more educated ppl will chime in.

[CSG Mike]

How many days/sessions did you get out of the XP10 fronts?

We need to determine if it is too much pad or not enough first. The HC+800 and DS2500 are both downgrades from the XP10.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

How many days/sessions did you get out of the XP10 fronts?

We need to determine if it is too much pad or not enough first. The HC+800 and DS2500 are both downgrades from the XP10.

4-5 full track days NA. 1.5 track days supercharged.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

4-5 full track days NA. 1.5 track days supercharged.

Did you happen to log the rate of wear? What kind of tires for the days?

The noise should be gone if properly bedded. We currently run Project Mu 999 on our AP Racing brakes without any horrible squeeking/howling/madness.

[subielife]

I have been having good luck with Hawk DTC-30s (all around) with Michelin Pilot SS (stock size). Car is tracked about 40 times per year (I am a very active instructor) and is on stock suspension with a muffler delete and rear seat/spare tire etc. removed.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Did you happen to log the rate of wear? What kind of tires for the days?

The noise should be gone if properly bedded. We currently run Project Mu 999 on our AP Racing brakes without any horrible squeeking/howling/madness.

No, no log sorry.

I am on RS3's that are starting to get hard i think (7-8 track days on them).

OT: Is it normal to drop 4 sec per lap due to old/harder RS3's? My last event at Thill showed me way slower in the corners than before when I was NA and fresh RS3's. Scratching my head a lil here since FI is supposed to lower my times not raise them...

Back to brakes: my bedding was on the street where I did about 12-15 of 70-10 mph stops in a row untill they started smoking a bit.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

No, no log sorry.

I am on RS3's that are starting to get hard i think (7-8 track days on them).

OT: Is it normal to drop 4 sec per lap due to old/harder RS3's? My last event at Thill showed me way slower in the corners than before when I was NA and fresh RS3's. Scratching my head a lil here since FI is supposed to lower my times not raise them...

Back to brakes: my bedding was on the street where I did about 12-15 of 70-10 mph stops in a row untill they started smoking a bit.

RS3's heat cycle out, as do all tires, 4 seconds is possible with really old RS3s.

Vortechs are known to cook the oil, so keep an eye on those temps. Temps drop super fast when you lift, so you need to be logging.

Bed till they fade, not till they smoke. They're not one and the same... Screeching is a sign that you may have glazed them, where as a piercing scream is an unbedded pad

[Acree]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

RS3's heat cycle out, as do all tires, 4 seconds is possible with really old RS3s.

Vortechs are known to cook the oil, so keep an eye on those temps. Temps drop super fast when you lift, so you need to be logging.

Bed till they fade, not till they smoke. They're not one and the same... Screeching is a sign that you may have glazed them, where as a piercing scream is an unbedded pad

Mike,

I too was unable to properly bed the XP-10s. The only power adder I have is exhaust, and I am still on stock primacy. Is it possible for me to properly bed these pads? I didn't think my setup could generate enough heat.

In the mean time, I had to go back to stock pads for DD. They're fcking awful. If you think I can generate enough heat with this setup, what's involved in preparing the rotors for bedding again? Sanding? Rotor and pads, or just the rotors?

[Element Tuning]

I really wouldn't recommend you run two different brake compounds. By running a more aggressive pad up front you are already making a front bias setup more front bias. This mames your front brakes do more work and the rear less. This is why you are burning up front brake pads at a much higher rate.

If you run the same rear compound, the rear will do more work and the front pads will last longer and will also generate less heat.

If you are going to run a real race pad you should swap them for street pads right as they squeel. It means you've scrubbed the pad transfer off because the pad is running too cool and is extremely abrasive.

Since your rear pads are good I would try some xp8s up front.

Now if you have a big brake kit up front and stock rear diameter the bias shift is massive and call me crazy but I put more aggressive pads on the rear

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by Acree

Mike,

I too was unable to properly bed the XP-10s. The only power adder I have is exhaust, and I am still on stock primacy. Is it possible for me to properly bed these pads? I didn't think my setup could generate enough heat.

In the mean time, I had to go back to stock pads for DD. They're fcking awful. If you think I can generate enough heat with this setup, what's involved in preparing the rotors for bedding again? Sanding? Rotor and pads, or just the rotors?

You probably don't have enough tire to generate the heat to bed properly. I run XP12 on my race car but I bedded the pads in on slicks but oem power without issue. When I raced with the same oads but in RS3 I could tell I had too much brake as it was very easy to engage abs with only moderate brake pressure.

Everyone has their own bed-in process but I run serious brake pads on all my race cars and I find I have to drive with the brakes on to generate moderate heat and then perform the traditional high speed stop. Like Mike mentioned you need to feel the fade, which is the pad "gassing" out, and only then have you made the pad hot enough to transfer material to the rotor. I don't think 70 mph street stops will do the trick on an XP10.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Acree

Mike,

I too was unable to properly bed the XP-10s. The only power adder I have is exhaust, and I am still on stock primacy. Is it possible for me to properly bed these pads? I didn't think my setup could generate enough heat.

In the mean time, I had to go back to stock pads for DD. They're fcking awful. If you think I can generate enough heat with this setup, what's involved in preparing the rotors for bedding again? Sanding? Rotor and pads, or just the rotors?

We didn't have any issue bedding the XP10 in with stock tires and power. However, having stickier tires will help you generate the heat.

Find a safe, closed road, and do multiple slow-downs, (not stops), from 80 to 30. As soon as you hit 30, downshift to 2nd, WOT back to 80 (redlineish in 3rd), and brake back down to 30. You want to do this back to back with no gaps in between until you feel the brakes start to slow down the car less. At this point, just cruise to let the brakes completely cool down, and your pads will be bedded.

When you're braking from 80 to 30, you want to be braking hard, but not hitting ABS. Find the point where your brake pedal hits ABS, and back off 5%. On a side note, this is how the majority of your braking on track should be as well.

If you have brake ducts, cover them up for bedding. Also, it's a lot easier to do in warmer weather...

[rice_classic]

My silly opinions...

Brake Balance
1: Element Tuning is right about braking balance, however under braking your nose dives and your rear lifts. So you want brake balance. Often times on a well balanced RWD car running the same compound front/rear works ideally mainly because the rear calipers/pads/rotors are smaller. This clearly the case for Element Tuning's race car. BUT! On some cars even though the rear brakes are smaller than the front, the clamping force produced on an unloaded tire can be enough to lock them (or prematurely kick on the ABS). This is why manufacturers often times recommend different compounds front/rear.

Don't compromise
1: STOP BUYING A COMPROMISE! Clearly, I'm passionate about this. Changing pads takes all of 3 minutes with a jack, a 14mm wrench and a damn C-clamp to push the pistons back. Just swap pads when you get to the track. Buy track pads for tracking and street pads for daily driving. Then you have pads that do the best job for the situation. (no squeeking on the street, bad ass stopping power on the track)

2: Stop buying Carbotech, try something else. Sure they're a good company but they are some of the most sensitive pads in the known universe when it comes to bedding/burnishing. Since you've tried them already, try something else! Trust me on this, you're going to have fun. Trying new race pad compounds is like trying new women. It's almost always fun, even when it's not. Pretty soon you'll come to really (and I mean really) know what you want in a brake compound (initial bite, release, pedal effort, balance, ease of bedding, life etc).

Recommendation:
DTC 60 or DTC 70 (need bedding but aren't too "sensitive" to it)
http://www.topbrakes.com/c/car-items...nufacturer_id=

Cobalt Friction XR1 or XR2 (Should be bedded but you can just throw them in and go, amazing pads)
http://www.cobaltfriction.com/search...s.asp?cat=2443

(My favorite) Raybestos ST43 or ST45 (Need bedding, but aren't super sensitive to it. Most folks in the racing community refer to these as "miracle pads".)
Go here: http://www.porterfield-brakes.com/


What I think you should do is buy a set of one, note how they perform then buy a different one, and so on and so forth until you find what fits you best.

Normally I wouldn't advocate "trial and error" but in the case of buying brake pads, they all stop your car and trial and error in this case, is very fun and extremely rewarding.

[rice_classic]

And you don't need to worry about the transfer layer on the rotor when swapping between street pads and race pads. Whatever layer is on there by street pad will be scraped off and replaced by the race pad and the race pad transfer layer will work just fine with street pads.