A question regarding wheel/suspension aptitude.

[Asterisked Accolade]

I couldn't decide if this topic would fit well in the wheel section or the suspension section-- but i think it fits here.

I'm seeing a lot of people getting large wheels; sizes such as 17x9.5, 17x8.0 and so on. Even getting a wheel like the Enkei RPF1, the weight and price of wheels in this size can get up there.

So, i'm assuming people are going for those size wheels to increase grip and to control oversteer. Now, my topic question is, instead of getting these large wheels, making them wider and wider, adding weight. . .could you not do a suspension/aero set up to make those large wheels less necessary?

For instance, could you not just add a GT Wing and adjust the rear toe to Toe Inward 0.5 degrees, leave the rear sway bar alone or remove it, while stiffening up the front a bit? I would think that setup would control your oversteer enough to be able to benefit from smaller lighter (and cheaper) wheels.

Am i wrong in this?

- - -

My history has been with small FWDs and trying to fit the smallest possible wheel over the caliper (typically 15'') and only going for a 205/50/15 tire, as to keep the overall weight of the wheel/tire at around 33lbs. Not to mention the effect smaller wheels have on acceleration and top speed.

[feldy]

People are adding large wheels and so on because they do help grip. And we race in classes that have rules. Not all the classes allow aero mods or large gt wings. So we do what we can with the money we have and the rules set forth. Some track the car some autocross the car and each has different needs.

[Asterisked Accolade]

Originally Posted by feldy

People are adding large wheels and so on because they do help grip. And we race in classes that have rules. Not all the classes allow aero mods or large gt wings. So we do what we can with the money we have and the rules set forth. Some track the car some autocross the car and each has different needs.

I see. I hadn't considered the rules you have to abide by-- i typically run my car on open-track, i apologize for that.

However, as it's burning my curiosity, could you also comment on the validity of my logic behind my alternative to larger wheels, objectively?

[Sccabrz192]

It depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Adding negative rear toe and a big wing adds drag, more drag than a bigger tire patch would, so this is something to weigh the cost/benefits. Aero also has substantially less impact (some would lobby none) at lower/autocross speeds. Adding rear toe will also increase the wear on the tires.

Wider tires/wheels coupled with stickier compounds is the easiest way to increase grip with minimal sacrifices... steering feel and turn-in being 2 of the bigger sacrifices when increasing tire width.

[Asterisked Accolade]

Originally Posted by Sccabrz192

It depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Adding negative rear toe and a big wing adds drag, more drag than a bigger tire patch would, so this is something to weigh the cost/benefits. Aero also has substantially less impact (some would lobby none) at lower/autocross speeds. Adding rear toe will also increase the wear on the tires.

Wider tires/wheels coupled with stickier compounds is the easiest way to increase grip with minimal sacrifices... steering feel and turn-in being 2 of the bigger sacrifices when increasing tire width.

Thank you very much for painting an objectively sound picture. I appreciate it.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Asterisked Accolade

I couldn't decide if this topic would fit well in the wheel section or the suspension section-- but i think it fits here.

I'm seeing a lot of people getting large wheels; sizes such as 17x9.5, 17x8.0 and so on. Even getting a wheel like the Enkei RPF1, the weight and price of wheels in this size can get up there.

So, i'm assuming people are going for those size wheels to increase grip and to control oversteer. Now, my topic question is, instead of getting these large wheels, making them wider and wider, adding weight. . .could you not do a suspension/aero set up to make those large wheels less necessary?

For instance, could you not just add a GT Wing and adjust the rear toe to Toe Inward 0.5 degrees, leave the rear sway bar alone or remove it, while stiffening up the front a bit? I would think that setup would control your oversteer enough to be able to benefit from smaller lighter (and cheaper) wheels.

Am i wrong in this?

- - -

My history has been with small FWDs and trying to fit the smallest possible wheel over the caliper (typically 15'') and only going for a 205/50/15 tire, as to keep the overall weight of the wheel/tire at around 33lbs. Not to mention the effect smaller wheels have on acceleration and top speed.

You have to balance output with grip to find the ideal setup for your application. For most people, this involves wider rims and tires. Remember, this car likely has substantially more output than your FWD. The fast FWD guys I know all run large rubber (usually the largest that will fit or allowed by the rules) to match their output (B18, built K20/K24, etc.)

One could argue that oversteer with this car is a setup or driving error, and using an alignment and aero to bandaid that doesn't eliminate the source of the oversteer.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

One could argue that oversteer with this car is a setup or driving error, and using an alignment and aero to bandaid that doesn't eliminate the source of the oversteer.

Or preference. I like a little oversteer in my cars.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Or preference. I like a little oversteer in my cars.

I've noticed all the really fast FWD guys that are local to me are a bit nutty and have their cars set up loose...

They also run suspensions that are worth more than the cars themselves...

I suppose the nuts behind the steering wheels may have a screw or two loose...

[Sccabrz192]

I'll also point out that based on the information provided in one of the early marketing videos put out by Subaru, they specifically mentioned that the wheel/tire package was one of the places they sacrificed on to keep the vehicle cost down with the assumption that owners would be replacing them.

I'd suggest based on this info and the other usage of the primacy tires, the OE wheel/tire package was specifically aimed at maximizing the EPA economy label.

[Sccabrz192]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I've noticed all the really fast FWD guys that are local to me are a bit nutty and have their cars set up loose...

They also run suspensions that are worth more than the cars themselves...

I suppose the nuts behind the steering wheels may have a screw or two loose...

Gotta love Motons on a mid 80s civic

[Sccabrz192]

Also to address your questions RE wheel size... smaller overall tire diameter changes the drive ratio at the wheels, meaning you will be at higher RPM in the same gear going the same speed (I know, this is a 'duh' statement, but stick with me here)... in older econobox FWD cars, close ratioed gear boxes were not common, they had wide ratios and typically 4 or 5 speed transmissions, so when you reduce the tire OD, your gear box can still reach a decent top speed in the same gear. drastically changing this ratio on a close ratio gearbox will get you in trouble with being between gears too much, so you hardly ever see that practice anymore unless someone has changed their trans or diff gear ratios as well.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Sccabrz192

steering feel and turn-in being 2 of the bigger sacrifices when increasing tire width.

Why does increasing width affect turn in?

[Sccabrz192]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

Why does increasing width affect turn in?

It's due to the way the tire responds to a change in heading as it is rotating. The tire flexes creating a difference in inner and outer sidewall speeds (the sidewall which is running the shorter radius is turning at a slower RPM than the outer sidewall and the tire patch becomes more teardrop shaped. As the tire rotates it creates a pneumatic trail, with larger tires, there is more deformation, which translates to a "numb" steering feel and a less responsive turn in, assuming you don't exceed the potential grip of the smaller tire and all other variables are constant (sidewall stiffness, no discernible difference in tire pressures, temperatures, etc...) the narrower tire will feel sharper. This also works in opposite effect as the wider tire will also not auto-center as well. Driving with the wider tire is just something you have to adjust to, it means you turn in a hair earlier, a hair faster, a hair further, and reduce the steering input a a hair sooner as the bigger tire catches up and reaches steady state.

Edit: my image link wasnt working so I removed it.

[Captain Snooze]

Thank you for your detailed reply.