Dedicated race series?

[Swift]

I was thinking along the lines of HONDA challenge or something...or the spec miata racing. This car is making such a splash I am thinking I would like to build mine for purpose racing but for a series not just "track days" or stuck in a class based on what they think...So I am hoping they do an all BRZ/FR-S series.

Anyone here track guys or know insiders to get wheels in motion(pun intended)

[rice_classic]

Got $50k?

[GTM_Challenge]

I think it'll be quite a few years before you see a spec series pop up. Spec Z just started this year and those cars have been out for a while. I'ev been begging for a Spec S2000 class for a long time.

[rice_classic]

I'm not a big fan of spec racing. I really like some aspects but other aspects seem less favorable.

Just some pros and cons and I'll use Spec Miata as an example:

PROS:
-Very close racing
-Very competitive racing

CONS:
-COST!
-All the same car
-More COST!


Let me explain the CONS, only because the PROS are self evident.

COST:
In spec racing the identical-ness of the cars creates a dilemma which is: they are identical. So how do you gain an advantage if everything is spec? Ever wonder why the front running Spec Miatas have engines that are $5k to $10k? The answer: small variances. Buy 10 blocks, 10 heads, 10 cams, 10 crank shafts etc etc and closely inspect each and every part for weight tolerance etc and use the best parts to build the strongest engine that still meets the OEM "spec". All this might be the difference of 1-2hp but in Spec Miata... that could be 1st place or 8th place. This kind of "cost-creep" happens VERY fast once a spec series becomes popular and it doesn't just happen with engine cost. Other things come into play with drive shafts, bearings, etc. Like I said this cost-creep happens in any well populated and highly competitive series (including Club Level) but in Spec series it can be overwhelming, overwhelmingly fast.

All the cars are the same:

This sounds good because the competition is close but is it? With all the cars being the same the racing strategy now has less variables, the "racecraft" involved only takes into account what that car is capable of. The inverse argument is: race this car in a class that is not spec but yet is cost effective to build it too the rules. Then you battle against all kinds of different cars with different strengths and weaknesses. Faster on the straights but worse under braking or faster in the corners but no so much in the straights or very close just faster in different sectors of the track... Racing against different cars that run the same laptimes but run those lap times in a different manner is very fun and the racecraft, the strategy involved during the race to come out on top in this environment is also very rewarding.

Cost creep in non-spec class happens as well but often times not as rapidly and not to the extent. Improved Touring is a good example of non-spec classes and there's several different levels of Improved Touring. I think once the FRS is 5 years old (minimum age of car to be allowed in IT), it will be in Improved Touring R (IT-R) and will be a hoot to race with other IT-R cars (like the Integra Type R).


More cost:
Imagine spending $900 for tires and only racing on them twice because after that they aren't at their "peak", and if you're racing on tires that aren't at their absolute "peak" then you don't stand a chance. So now you're spending $700-1200 (depending on tire) every couple to few weekends to have the best performing "spec" tire. Yes this same thing happens in non-spec racing but often times not the same degree especially in classes that don't have a spec tire.


The reason why I posted; "Got 50k?" above is that to go race now you have to spend $25k to buy the car then another $25k (or so) to develop it into a race car.

Also, more spec series fail than succeed. There's SOOOO many classes out there where this car could easily be built to the current rule set and be quite competitive without having to create a new "series" for it.

[LDadrenaline]

I have raced multiple spec series and am in full support of it. Yeah you have the guys who drop $10k on a motor, but that makes it more satisfying to beat them. Also, SM doesn't have sealed motors. If Spec86 (or whatever you want to call it) has sealed motors then game on. Leave header, exhaust, and ECU design open so that you don't have people trying to get away with hiding shit. Stock suspension, upgrade roll bars, throw some tires on it and then boom. awesome racing.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by LDadrenaline

. Stock suspension, upgrade roll bars, throw some tires on it and then boom. awesome racing.

Don't underestimate the FULL cost of installing safety into a car.

Cage, fire suppression, seats, head restraint, belts, kill-switch, helmet, high end suit, gloves, shoes (preferably two of each) and for added safety and peace of mind, a fuel cell.

This alone would burn a deep hole in anyone's wallet.

[FrX]

I fully expect a "Spec 86" series to be formed at some point in the future. Will probably take 5-10 years or so to happen, however.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

Don't underestimate the FULL cost of installing safety into a car.

Cage, fire suppression, seats, head restraint, belts, kill-switch, helmet, high end suit, gloves, shoes (preferably two of each) and for added safety and peace of mind, a fuel cell.

This alone would burn a deep hole in anyone's wallet.

I'm pretty sure he's not and that he understands the subject very well.

No one said spec racing, or any racing for that matter, is going to be cheap. We are 60k into chump car racing over 3 seasons and that's a "$500" car and our two cars (one parts, one chassis that became the race car) were only $350.

And I know LD understands the importance of fire suppression! (sorry LD.. I had to go there )

Personally I don't have the bankroll to do spec racing or showroom stock with a BRZ or FRS I'll stick to chumpcar.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by LDadrenaline

If Spec86 (or whatever you want to call it) has sealed motors then game on. Leave header, exhaust, and ECU design open so that you don't have people trying to get away with hiding shit. Stock suspension, upgrade roll bars, throw some tires on it and then boom. awesome racing.

I still see a full build being at or close to $50k (including price of car). If you were spending $50k just to build/develop a race car would you want to race on stock suspension? I would not. Even at $25k.. I still would not. I can dramatically improve the suspension for under $5k.

I'm looking forward to 5 years from now where lots of the development has already been done, you can find salvage-title FRS's for cheap and the aftermarket support has boomed.

The other problem is: who's going to pick up the series? I don't think local clubs are going to do this at least not for several years and only if the 86 is a relatively popular car and can be found used for a very affordable price (like a Miata, a 944, E30 or any Honda from the 90's). So is a spec series going to be like the Mustang Challenge or the TDI challenge? Or is it going to be like the NASA Honda Challenge (Local and national divisions) or is going to be like SCCA Spec Miata (local and National).

Like I said before, on a grand scale, Spec series fail more often than they succeed. Would be a bummer to spend all that $$ to build your car to that series only to have it dissolve in a year or two just like most of the spec series before it and then to keep racing it you spend more $$ to fit it into another rule set. Spec Miata is even more special for this reason, it has longevity for various reasons and will be around for years to come.. a big part of that reason is I can go buy a fully built Spec Miata racer right now for $6k and go racing or buy and build one for $10k.

Barrier to entry and cost/benefit is the key to class popularity.


Also a point I missed in my first diatribe is that since all the cars are equal in spec racing that means they are the same at all points on the track. They are the same down the straights, braking and cornering. This means they will run door to door for a greater percentage of each lap. This leads to more contact subsequently earning Spec Miata the name: "Spec Pinata".

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Also a point I missed in my first diatribe is that since all the cars are equal in spec racing that means they are the same at all points on the track. They are the same down the straights, braking and cornering. This means they will run door to door for a greater percentage of each lap. This leads to more contact subsequently earning Spec Miata the name: "Spec Pinata".

The 100+ car fields help with that too

[rice_classic]

Without a doubt.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by GTM_Challenge

I think it'll be quite a few years before you see a spec series pop up. Spec Z just started this year and those cars have been out for a while. I'ev been begging for a Spec S2000 class for a long time.

I know the joke in the NASA Florida region is that TTC/PTC is SpecS2000.

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Also a point I missed in my first diatribe is that since all the cars are equal in spec racing that means they are the same at all points on the track. They are the same down the straights, braking and cornering. This means they will run door to door for a greater percentage of each lap. This leads to more contact subsequently earning Spec Miata the name: "Spec Pinata".

Last time I checked that is what most racers want, good clean side by side racing. If you want to win every weekend and race in a class of one then there are plenty of options out there. If you want to find out how good you are, then you race in a class with lots of cars. If you really want to find out how good you are then you race in a Spec class where all the cars are nearly the same. We definitely call them Spec Pinatas as well, but I think most of that comes from the over agression from the younger Spec Miata drivers that are trying to move up the Mazda ladder and are always looking to impress instead of going out there to enjoy themselves and bring the car back in one piece. I feel like SpecE30 is the perfect place to be. Are there guys that show up every weekend with a fresh set of perfectly shaved and heat cycled RA1s, sure. Are there guys that refresh their motor every year, sure. The true talent will show itself regardless of those things. Let the front runners be the front runners, and go out there and enjoy yourself.

[King Tut]

As to the main question, as mentioned the new Spec Z class just came out using 2003+ 350Zs that can now be found used for less than $10k. We will probably have to wait till the FR-S/BRZ gets to a similar cost before people will be willing to purchase them and build them to go racing.