Considering the BRZ as a second car?

[Pilot1226]

Hi all,

I frequent the LegacyGT and Outback.org forums - this is my first post here.

I'm a Subaru Ambassador in the the Northern NJ area, and I've been looking to upgrade my current Subaru - a 2011 Outback 2.5i - to something a little bit more fun to drive. Don't get me wrong - the Outback is a great car, super versatile and tons of utility. But, it is a little lackluster in the smiles per gallon department.

Primarily, I was looking at both the Legacy and Outbacks in the 3.6R trim - and it looks like 2019 will probably be the last year for that. They just discontinued the Forester XT entirely in 2019, and I'm wondering if they'll either just flat-out drop the 3.6 trim in the Outback or move the FA24DIT from the Ascent over to it in the 2020 redesign.

Very rarely, I still need the utility, so I wasn't even considering something like a BRZ or WRX because there is that small chance I needed something bigger. Funny enough, my WRX-driving coworker suggested I look into keeping the 2011 (which I believe is in great mechanical shape) and consider a second car, like the BRZ.

So, there you have it. My wife drives a Honda Pilot (we had a need for a third-row SUV. The Tribeca wasn't quite a true 7/8 passenger vehicle, and they were well out of production at the point we needed to buy...) so that SUV is our family vacation car.

The purpose of the BRZ (or WRX, if that's what you all suggest) is to essentially, occasionally, be my midlife crisis/solo drive car. When I go to work, and there's nobody with me, you bet I'd take the fun car. I have two small kids, 6 and 4, both in car seats. I know the BRZ's car seats are laughable - especially when the little ones get bigger - so when I drive them either to or from school (depending on work schedule), I'll probably take the wagon.

Again, I have been doing my own maintenance on the Outback for about a year now. Nothing special at 85k - but, I did hit up a rear differential fluid change, tire rotation, a couple oil changes (M1HM 5w30), and a new serpentine belt amongst some other weird repairs, like re-gasketing the third brake light with permatex...) and it seems to drive nice.

My biggest concern about the Outback is the CVT. I know they've had issues with them, and the torque converter is a ticking time bomb. That's the part of me that says "get rid of this while you can!" and jump into the 3.6R with the high-torque CVT which hopefully has all the bugs out of it.

But, there's a price to pay - the Outback 3.6R Limited will run me just about 40k. The Legacy is around 35k, but again, I think I need the occasional cargo space. I don't mind the fact that it's a wagon.

I love the Subaru brand, so I'd be happy considering the mish-mash of Toyotabaru parts, and I love their fuel injector setup to prevent carbon issues on the valves.

That being said, I'd definitely get the 6MT version. It's been a long time since I drove a stick - I did learn on one, but it's been probably close to 20 years since I did any type of real driving. The biggest complaint I've heard is that the clutch is hard and the shifter is notchy. Considering I learned on an old 1990 Camry 5-speed (I think?) I don't really know how to compare the two. I'm trying not to be a toolbag when I go in for a test drive. I posted this on Reddit a few days ago and people suggested things like removing the helper spring and turning off incline assist - but I might actually enjoy them since I would probably consider myself a novice. I did drive a stick Jeep last summer and I was okay except for a weird stall when my leg started getting tired and I clutched out too quick.

I'm looking at the Premium, since it won't be my daily driver as much as I'd like it to be. I might consider the Limited if the new year's design as something amazing to it. I use Waze which doesn't work with CarPlay right now so I don't need navi or anything.

So, the big concern is under-use of the car. A car is made to be driven. I'm sure that there are a lot of issues that will pop up if I don't drive this thing enough. I'm sure bouncing back and forth between the Outback and the BRZ won't help my "re-learning" of a stick, too. But I envision myself throwing a car cover on it when snow gets here, maybe digging it out once or twice every week during the winter. That seem plausible?

I live west of the NYC metropolitan area, so we do get some snowy winters. That would be the job for the Outback. It's also interesting to note I've never run winters. I've only had all-seasons on my Outback, and it's been fine for 7 years and a lot of snow/blizzard/unplowed roads.

Is it worth considering a certified pre-owned BRZ from a few years ago, or are the newer ones vastly improved to warrant the expense? What about a lease, while I learn to get my "feet wet" again? If I love it, I'll buy it outright at the end. If I don't, or if there's a new model, I can always slide over to that.

No modding - I don't track, I don't offroad. My commute is about 10 miles through a city - brutal on a stick - but I'd probably take a highway toll road route that will be about 20 miles each way to be easier on my left leg and my throw-out bearing.

Would something like the BRZ make sense here and be worthy of taking up that coveted spot in my driveway, should I consider something with more passenger room like a WRX? Should I just trade-in and get the 3.6 Outback?


Questions that popped up from Reddit:

Is the clutch hard to learn? Is it forgiving?
Should I consider another brand?
Are there any special maintenance or preventative maintenance things to watch out for?
Thoughts on changing the summer performance tires to an all-season tire?

Thanks... Pilot

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Really sounds like the BRZ is not a car for your current situation. I just don't think you'll get the most out of it. Infrequent driving won't help. This car has a lot of quirks you have to learn your way around, like the clutch and the notchy shifting you mentioned. Glaring when you're new to the car and not so much when you're "used" to it. You'll just find yourself being frustrated if you don't drive it as often and don't get to know it well enough. I say go with one of the other options.

[LinguisticGarnish]

I'm biased, but I would say that you can definitely get away with using the BRZ as your daily IF your other vehicle takes up the slack. I don't have 2 kids, but I have one little one and a medium sized dog, and they fit in the back fine for now. I think it is actually easier when they are little but not so little that they need a fully reclined rear facing seat. I drive my 2 year old daughter almost every day, and she can get out completely on her own and only needs minimal help getting in.
Our primary vehicle is a 6/7 passenger mini-van, and if we need the space we can take that. Meets our needs just fine, and I don't have to drive anything bigger than I need everyday.

The clutch is no problem at all, I find it a little too soft compared to my previous daily. I can't say if it's forgiving or not, because it's been awhile since I was a beginner, but it does bite pretty high up. My wife can drive it, and she is tiny and driving stick terrifies her, but she can do it in the brz. If you have decent tires you shouldn't be afraid to drive it in winter either.

Of course if you can afford to keep both financially and space wise, that's for you to decide. I wish more families would consider just keeping one large vehicle for their needs and then another fun one like when I was a kid. Most people don't need to have 2 enormous people movers or SUVs.

Good luck whatever you decide though.

[Mr.ac]

By the length of your essay, the BRZ/86 is not for you.

Reddit questions:
Yes it's easy to learn, and forgiving.
Yes, I highly recommend other brands.
Not really its been trouble free if you don't fuck with it. Most common problems are clutch throw out bearing blowing up. Other is faulty coil packs. Most are covered under warranty, but simple cheap for diy-ers.
Don't retard the car with cheap all season tires. Either get a proper winter set of tires or a winter beater car.

The tranny is notchy, it's really just a coupe. So it's useless for anything else.

My recommendation: get that outback or legacy/wrx in a manual. That would fill the emptiness and meet your requirements.

[spike021]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

Really sounds like the BRZ is not a car for your current situation. I just don't think you'll get the most out of it. Infrequent driving won't help. This car has a lot of quirks you have to learn your way around, like the clutch and the notchy shifting you mentioned. Glaring when you're new to the car and not so much when you're "used" to it. You'll just find yourself being frustrated if you don't drive it as often and don't get to know it well enough. I say go with one of the other options.

I'd disagree with this. I was new to the car and didn't have any of these issues, and neither do I now.

Of course I learned to drive manual with this one, so YMMV OP.

[olsonpg]

Originally Posted by spike021

I'd disagree with this. I was new to the car and didn't have any of these issues, and neither do I now.

Of course I learned to drive manual with this one, so YMMV OP.

If you think this car is quirky than you haven't driven many cars in your day.

This car is many peoples weekend car and it suits them just fine. I'm surprised at all the people not recommending this platform. Its literally the most forgiving easy to drive go-carty type car thats perfect as a second car.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

The biggest complaint I've heard is that the clutch is hard and the shifter is notchy.

The clutch is not hard in this car. In fact, I thought the official whining was that it was too soft. What you need to do is try your best to erase what you've read about the clutch from your head and drive it yourself without making any plans in advance to modify it based on bitching and moaning from clueless idiots on the internet. IF you buy the car and find the clutch to be annoying in some way, it can be adjusted. But personally, I have no issue at all with this clutch and never found any need to modify it.

Now, about the notchy transmission, SOME are. SOME aren't. My transmission was smooth as butter until I had an engine replacement. When I got it back with the same transmission, it was notchy as hell and didn't feel the same at all. I've gotten used to it and don't really mind it.

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

I did drive a stick Jeep last summer and I was okay except for a weird stall when my leg started getting tired and I clutched out too quick.

I was in the same boat as you. I went more than 20 years without driving a stick, then bought this car. Some muscles I hadn't used in a long time complained for the first few days. Now the car is like an extension of my body.

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

I live west of the NYC metropolitan area, so we do get some snowy winters. That would be the job for the Outback. It's also interesting to note I've never run winters.

Mine has spent its entire life in the south, so I have limited experience with driving mine in winter weather. However, a lot of our northern members get a set of steelies and put blizzaks on them, then switch to the winter tires for the season and keep driving it. The general consensus among those who actually drive it in the snow seems to be that the car itself handles snow just fine with the right tires.

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

Is it worth considering a certified pre-owned BRZ from a few years ago, or are the newer ones vastly improved to warrant the expense?

The newer ones are basically the same car with minor performance upgrades. If you're not interested in the upgrades between Premium and Limited, you're probably not going to get much out of the changes year over year either. If this is truly going to be a second car, let someone else take the first year depreciation, save the money and get a used one.

These can be great urban cars because of how nimble and maneuverable they are. There's a chance you'll love it so much you'll drive it more than you thought you would, and it'll become your first car. If that happens and you start wishing you'd bought a new one, you can get most of your money back out of the used one in a private sale, then pick up a new one at that point.

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

What about a lease, while I learn to get my "feet wet" again?

I'd consider it a waste of money compared to a used one. Leases are for "subscription" car buyers, people who just want a new car every few years and only consider the monthly payment in the "can I afford it" question.

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

My commute is about 10 miles through a city - brutal on a stick - but I'd probably take a highway toll road route that will be about 20 miles each way to be easier on my left leg and my throw-out bearing.

Personally, I prefer a manual in city traffic, with the exception of going up long hills with traffic. With a manual, you can creep along, you can coast, you can take it out of gear and rest. With an automatic, you're always fighting the car's urge to pull forward, and traffic NEVER crawls at the same speed your transmission wants to pull you at idle. I just don't really get the complaint about driving a manual in traffic.

This car in particular behaves very well in traffic jams. Once you learn how to use a light foot on the accelerator, you can actually crawl this car at around 5-6 mph in gear on flat ground without lugging the engine.

I get the sense that people who complain the loudest about driving a manual in traffic don't actually drive manuals in traffic.

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

Questions that popped up from Reddit:

Screw Reddit. Those people are clueless. Most likely the overwhelming majority of the "advice" you've seen there came from people who just read about the car on auto blogs.

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

Is the clutch hard to learn? Is it forgiving?

This is a very easy car in which to learn/relearn to drive stick. It is quite forgiving, and it rewards good habits and tends to punish bad habits. The biggest legitimate complaint I've heard (and encountered a little myself) is that the clutch bite point can be a bit difficult to find at first, because it doesn't just grab hold and jerk your teeth out like a competition clutch or a 60s sports car. But keep an open mind and give it a couple of days to get used to it, and it's not an issue.

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

Should I consider another brand?

There's not anything else out there that offers this combination of performance, practicality and low cost.

I bought mine for lengthy commutes and traveling. I'm putting more than 30K miles per year on it. I can afford a whole lot more sports car, but I don't see anything out there that will feel like this car while providing the same level of comfort and enough room for bags when traveling in a sub-$30K package while getting more than 30 MPG (or, at least it did before I put the Pilot Super Sports on it). So four years in, I still don't see any reason to consider a new car.

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

Are there any special maintenance or preventative maintenance things to watch out for?

Not really. The big surprise for a lot of folks is that having the spark plugs changed is rather expensive, in the $600 to $700 range. That's because the plugs are on the bottom of the engine and can't be reached without disconnecting the motor mounts and exhaust and raising the engine four inches.

Other than that, it's not a very demanding car and not that difficult to keep running.

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

Thoughts on changing the summer performance tires to an all-season tire?

The stock tires are fine. However, upgrading to a stickier performance tire will significantly increase the cornering ability of the car. You'll see a lot of people suggest their favorites on here. I run Michelin Pilot Super Sports and couldn't be happier even though my fuel economy dropped and the PSS don't last nearly as long as the stock tires.

In your situation I would seriously consider what I noted above, getting a set of simple steel wheels with winter tires and swapping them for the season. You can buy a second set of TPMS modules for the winter set and get an ATEQ Quickset to flash them to the car so that you don't get a CEL. Or you can just live with the light through the winter.

Bottom line, go drive one. If you like it, buy one. The problem with this car as a "second car" is that in addition to being fun, it's just too practical. I suspect you'll find yourself using it as your first car a lot more than you anticipate.

[ermax]

The typical complaint about the clutch is it’s to light not that it’s too heavy. There is a helper spring that can be removed to make it more stiff. I guess you could call the tranny notchy. It has a very distinct click into each gear. Not sloppy and mushy like your typical FWD cable shifter. The only other tranny I would rank over the BRZ tranny is the S2000 but not by much. What really makes some manuals easier to learn on are those with lots of low end torque. My IS300 for example can start in 3rd without even touching the throttle. But the IS300 also has notoriously laggy DBW so it very hard to drive smooth. The BRZ isn’t laggy and has just enough low end torque to be fairly easy to learn. I just thought my 16 year old daughter to drive it and it didn’t take her long to be smooth. The gearing is very short so you end up shifting a lot. If this is your dedicated fun car then this should be a pro rather than a con.

I have 5 kids. 16, 13, 12, 11 and 5 months. The baby seat fits and my wife can still ride with me. My sons fit in the back passenger side no problem but can’t fit behind me because I’m 6’2. The convertible stroller fits in the truck. So does my jogger as long as I detach the wheels. I have a Suburban and IS300 for family driving. The FRS sits most of the weekend.

If you get a 2015 or newer you shouldn’t have many problems. The coil packs are mostly a problem with people who track their cars where they run it hard to 15-20mins and then park it with the bay all heat soaked. The TOB is the other problem. It was revised on the 2017 but don’t think it’s been in circulation long enough to know if it will last any longer. I replaced my TOB at 85k with the 2017 part. The TOB is covered under the 36k warranty. The car also makes all kinds of noises. Almost daily you will see a new thread on this forum about strange noises. You get used to it. It isn’t a practical car. More practical than an S2000 or Miata though. Drive one and that will probably convince you to buy it. Turn off the TC (hold the TC button for 5 secs) and do a graceful U turn.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by olsonpg

If you think this car is quirky than you haven't driven many cars in your day.

This car is many peoples weekend car and it suits them just fine. I'm surprised at all the people not recommending this platform. Its literally the most forgiving easy to drive go-carty type car thats perfect as a second car.

My thought exactly. The average age on this car is very low so most people are basing their opinion on zero experience. I suspect some people are also voicing options on the MT even though they actually own the AT. This guy is specifically looking for a fun weekend car or work and back car. I can’t think of any more perfect car for the task at hand.

[ermax]

Plugs are on the side of the engine and can actually be changed without raising the engine. I suspect you could find a shop that is used to working on boxers (with the exception of Toyota or Subaru who will base the labor cost off the service manual which calls for raising the engine) that knows how to do it without raising the engine that would do it for less. I pulled one of my plugs at 85k or so just to see how they looked and decided they were fine. Took about 15mins to remove and put it back in. You just need small hands and the right sized extension (real stubby one).

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by ermax

It isn’t a practical car.

It isn't a practical car for you.

[Ghost of Akina]

First and foremost find some one in your area that has one and will take you for a ride or drive it preferably. You could go to a dealer but you want to get a decent test drive out of it to get a better understanding of this car. A 10 minute drive in traffic is going to be pretty lacklustre. If you enjoy it I say go for it! I have 2 little ones and an SUV a company car and the BRZ as my weekend/track toy. Every time I get in I smile, heck peeking into the garage here and there puts a grin on my face. You can make it work for you if you really want to but you need to be sure you will enjoy this or any car you are considering. I think it would be smart to look at a pre-owned model year that way if it doesn’t work out you won’t be hit so hard by depreciation vs buying new. I don’t think I could live without some form of fun car just for me...but that’s me.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

Hi all,

I frequent the LegacyGT and Outback.org forums - this is my first post here.

Welcome

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

Primarily, I was looking at both the Legacy and Outbacks in the 3.6R trim - and it looks like 2019 will probably be the last year for that. They just discontinued the Forester XT entirely in 2019, and I'm wondering if they'll either just flat-out drop the 3.6 trim in the Outback or move the FA24DIT from the Ascent over to it in the 2020 redesign.

Forget the 3.6 trim. They'll stop producing this engine .. Too bad .. we are victims of engine down-sizing..

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

The purpose of the BRZ (or WRX, if that's what you all suggest) is to essentially, occasionally, be my midlife crisis/solo drive car. When I go to work, and there's nobody with me, you bet I'd take the fun car. I have two small kids, 6 and 4, both in car seats. I know the BRZ's car seats are laughable - especially when the little ones get bigger - so when I drive them either to or from school (depending on work schedule), I'll probably take the wagon.

Fact is that you'll probably drive the wagon. I have a Forester '12 and I have to take this one because of the kids (12 and 7).

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

I love the Subaru brand, so I'd be happy considering the mish-mash of Toyotabaru parts, and I love their fuel injector setup to prevent carbon issues on the valves.

Agree. Too bad that Subaru is not using the same injector setup with the newest engines ..

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

I'm looking at the Premium, since it won't be my daily driver as much as I'd like it to be. I might consider the Limited if the new year's design as something amazing to it. I use Waze which doesn't work with CarPlay right now so I don't need navi or anything.

This car was supposed to be back to the basics. Get the lowest trim level. You'll gain some weight and be closer to the original roots of this car

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

So, the big concern is under-use of the car. A car is made to be driven. I'm sure that there are a lot of issues that will pop up if I don't drive this thing enough. I'm sure bouncing back and forth between the Outback and the BRZ won't help my "re-learning" of a stick, too. But I envision myself throwing a car cover on it when snow gets here, maybe digging it out once or twice every week during the winter. That seem plausible?

What issues will pop up if you don't drive it? Mine is 3.5 years old and I have in total 6k miles. You should not have any issues if you do the usual maintenance and change the fluids.

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

Is it worth considering a certified pre-owned BRZ from a few years ago, or are the newer ones vastly improved to warrant the expense?

If you don't want to modify the car, then BUY THE NEWER ONE. The old ones were a bit under-powered. Not really a 200hp car... more closely to a 185-190hp car.

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

Hi all,
Would something like the BRZ make sense here and be worthy of taking up that coveted spot in my driveway, should I consider something with more passenger room like a WRX? Should I just trade-in and get the 3.6 Outback?

Get the BRZ! You might not use it too often, but when you use it you'll just smile!! Very few cars in the market can give you this feeling. There isn't any other in this price range.

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

Is the clutch hard to learn? Is it forgiving?

It has a sports car clutch. Not that much forgiving. However, my daily driver is an AT and I don't have issues to drive occassionaly the BRZ with the MT. They say it is like the bicycle. Once you learn, you never forget!

Originally Posted by Pilot1226

Thoughts on changing the summer performance tires to an all-season tire?

If you have snow in your area, better to switch to winter tires and keep the summer tires for the warmer days. All-season tires are just a compromise in everything. Personally, I don't drive it during the winter so I don't care.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

It isn't a practical car for you.

Correct due to kids....... just like the OP.